The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary session. The first item will be questions to the Minister for Climate Change. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and to be asked by Samuel Kurtz.

Public Transport

Samuel Kurtz AS: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting public transport in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ60156

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Our national transport delivery plan sets out a range of projects and programmes that will help deliver our vision of better, more reliable and attractive public transport services across south-west Wales.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, but what on earth is happening with St Clears railway station? I recently visited the site with local MP, Simon Hart, officials from Carmarthenshire County Council and two local county councillors, because we seem to be no further forward with the reopening of this station. In written replies to me, the decision to reopen the railway station now seems conditional on the location of the new hospital in west Wales, when this was never part of the business case in the first instance, which saw the UK Government, the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, Network Rail and the local community agree together that St Clears needed its railway station. There is talk that, while inflation has played its part, there was a staggering underestimation of the costs by the Welsh Government. So, to reiterate my opening question, Deputy Minister, what on earth is going on with St Clears railway station?

Lee Waters AC: Well, the challenge is that the business case assumed that it would cost £6 million to reopen St Clears station. That cost has now doubled, but the contribution from the DfT has not. Their contribution remains at £4.5 million. Now, this is rail infrastructure; rail infrastructure is not devolved. Now, there’s an assumption under this scheme that the Welsh Government will match fund, and we were willing to match fund at the lower cost. We simply do not have the funds to match fund at the higher cost. So, that is the truth of the situation and we recognise the need for a station at St Clears and fully support it and want it to happen. I think the reality and the practicalities we face and the choices we have here are that we know there is a plan for a large hospital nearby, public transport connectivity to that is critical and I think we need to be looking at those two developments in tandem. But if the UK Government wants to take its responsibilities for rail infrastructure seriously and provide further funding, we’d be very grateful to work with them.

Cefin Campbell AS: Deputy Minister, last week, I attended a meeting with the Member for Ceredigion in Llandysul to discuss the future of Fflecsi Bwcabus, which provides a service in parts of Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. The room was full to overflowing, with nearly 100 people in attendance, and what became clear to us on that evening was the very real evidence that scrapping this service is going to have a harmful effect on the lives of real people. These weren't e-mails, but lived evidence of how people suffering from epilepsy can't attend clinics; people who are reliant on physiotherapy on a weekly basis unable to attend their clinics and hospitals, not being able to do the weekly shop; some talking about having to cease employment because they wouldn't be able get to that place of employment. So, within four weeks, or with just four weeks' notice, you decided to end that service. Talk about a cliff edge for people who have to plan their personal futures. Now, when I raised this issue around a month ago, you said that you would work with community transport and local authorities to try and save elements of the Fflecsi Bwcabus. Can I ask for an update on that and can I ask you to respond to the request that I and the Member for Ceredigion have made of you, namely an urgent meeting between us to plan the future of Bwcabus in these areas? Could I ask you for a meeting, please?

Lee Waters AC: Diolch. Of course I'd be very happy to meet you and the other Member to discuss this. There is no easy answer to it, though, unfortunately. I think it's unfair to say that we gave short notice to end the service. The funding for the programme was destined to end when the European funding came to an end. This was a European-funded project. Now, Wales voted for Brexit; there are consequences to that. We were told by the UK Government we would have replacement funding. That hasn't happened. In fact, we are £1 billion down on where we were before we left the EU and its programmes, and that has consequences for our ability to fund public services.
Now, I value the Bwcabus service, and it's been the inspiration for the Fflecsi service that we're now trialling in other parts of Wales, so I need no convincing of the value of the model. I don't think passenger numbers were very strong. It's interesting that 100 people turned up at a meeting; it would be interesting to know how many of those were regular users of it. People often don't want to lose a service, but the very same people often don't support the service. So I think a thing we all need to reflect on as we look at the future of buses is how can we encourage more people to use those services. We are funding very significantly the TrawsCymru service through Ceredigion, which is an excellent service, with modern electric buses, with low fares, and it is very popular. So, we are putting a lot of investment into bus services in rural Wales. Very sadly, because of the funding situation we face in the short term, we were not able to replace the EU funding that has been taken away, and that, I'm afraid, is a fact that there is no easy answer to.
There are, of course, options, and the local authority has a legal duty to provide socially necessary bus services, and they have the option to find funding of their own, if it is as locally valued as the Member says. But they face a similar budgetary situation to what we do. So, it's not that we don't value the service; we simply don't have the money to fund all the things that we do value. But we are going to do our best with TfW and community transport to see what can be done where we have some options, but I'm not going to pretend other than this is a sub-optimal situation, which is deeply regrettable. But I'd be happy to discuss it further with the Member and his colleagues.

Laura Anne Jones AC: What steps is the Minister taking to address any issues caused by the blanket 20 mph speed limit?

Lee Waters AC: Well, as the Member knows, it is not a blanket speed limit, and she does a disservice to herself and the code of ethics that we all sign up to in this Chamber to be truthful and accurate—[Interruption.] It is a default speed limit, as she knows. It is the most significant change to road safety—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can I just clarify for the Record that the original question did call it a 'default blanket 20 mph speed limit', but it wasn't what you read out. So, if you can read out the question that you actually tabled, it would be useful for the Minister.

20 mph Speed Limits

Laura Anne Jones AC: 2. What steps is the Minister taking to address any issues caused by the default blanket 20 mph speed limit? OQ60167

Lee Waters AC: Well, it is a default speed limit, it is not a blanket speed limit, and that's an important distinction, because that is designed to mislead, and it's caused an awful lot of confusion with people that the Conservatives here need to take some responsibility for. It is the most significant change to improve road safety in Wales for decades, and we will continue to work with our partners to monitor implementation.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Deputy Minister, we've all seen the widespread disapproval of your new blanket 20 mph speed limit, from bus companies to emergency services, and, of course, the 0.5 million people that have signed the petition, and more. This week, we've even seen a magistrate resign over the issue. Deputy Minister, this policy is clearly deeply unpopular with the people of Wales, and, as elected politicians, we're here to serve the people, not to dictate and impose damaging policies on their lives. Deputy Minister, the issues of this ill-thought-out policy just keep stacking up, and there's no end in sight. Just when will you accept that this many people can't be wrong and commit to reversing this failed and damaging policy?

Lee Waters AC: Well, it is not ill thought out; it has been carefully thought out and worked on for over four and a half years. This has been rolled out in many other places—in London, in Edinburgh, in Spain. Conservative-led Cornwall Council want to roll this out in their area; they certainly don't think it's ill thought out nor that they are dictating or imposing. The party opposite are deliberately using highly charged, prejudicial language, not based on facts, to try and create a social reaction to distract from the fact that they are a party bankrupt of ideas and are morally empty as well. We know what we are doing is working in reducing speeds. Speeds are down, as they are everywhere else it's been brought in. And with speeds coming down, we can expect to see casualties coming down—[Interruption.]—for noise pollution to be reduced, for the benefits that have been shown elsewhere. Now, Andrew R.T. Davies shouts from a sedentary position. The example of Belfast, which he often quotes—. I'm not sure if he's looked at the study. I doubt it very much; he's simply looked at the headline. Because the study does not say what he thinks it says. It in fact supports the approach we are taking, because it calls for an area-wide approach, which is supported by behaviour change and normalisation. So, he should read the report properly and correct—[Interruption.] Well, if he has read it, then he's either misunderstood it, or he's misrepresenting it.

Mike Hedges AC: From talking to people, 90 per cent of people support 90 per cent of 20 mph roads. But I have had someone tell me, 'I am an experienced driver and I drive to road conditions. I do not need any speed limit.' Another, 'Deaths and serious injury are a price worth paying to travel at 30 mph.' Most ludicrous, that, '30 mph is suitable for roads of less than 30 metres.' There are, unfortunately, anomalies. Can I suggest to the Minister that A roads' and B roads' speed limits are left to the discretion of councils, with no guidance from the Welsh Government?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I can confirm that A roads and B roads are at the discretion of local councils, and that's made very clear in the guidance. And, in fact, I met with local authority leaders from across Wales yesterday to discuss the experience they've had in implementing it. And what was telling is that a large number of leaders said that they have had very little correspondence in recent weeks on this, that people are adapting to it, they're getting used to it.
We do think there are some examples, where, with the benefit of hindsight and experience, the wrong decisions have been made, and I've encouraged local authorities to think about how they can use their powers of discretion to make exceptions. They will be exceptions not the rule. So, it'll be, I think, a tidying-up exercise, but we had a very positive and constructive meeting with them yesterday.
We're going to do some more work to understand whether the guidance itself does need to change, or whether or not their confidence levels of how they apply the guidance need to be helped, working with other authorities—his own, for example, I think, has got the largest number of exceptions in Wales. So, obviously, there is an exceptions process; it's not a blanket, because if it was, how could Swansea issue so many exceptions? But there is an unevenness of approach across Wales, and we're working very closely with them to try and work that through.But the fact stands: average speeds are down. People are voting with their feet and are respecting the new speed limit.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, according to your colleagues, your Government is in a dire financial position, with important budgets like education, economy and finance being slashed as a result. Although that poverty-stricken image your Government portrays doesn't simply add up for me when you look at the eye-watering amounts of cash you've been splashing on vanity projects. Take the £33 million on 20 mph speed limits, or the £120 million being used to expand this place, or the £4.25 million spent buying farms for friends. And then, only days ago, we hear that the Government has managed to pluck £125 million from its magic money tree to give to Transport for Wales, which we all know is owned by the Welsh Labour Government. So, some might say this is an incredibly surprising move for a Government desperately trying to tighten up the purse strings.So, Deputy Minister, just what exactly is this money going to be spent on? And did Transport for Wales put forward a business case, because, quite frankly, I am worried that TfW is turning into the new Cardiff Airport, which has been swallowing up millions of pounds of taxpayers' cash without yielding any positive results so far?

Lee Waters AC: Well, it's curious, isn't it, that you regard a project to save lives as a vanity project. I don't regard it as a vanity project to reduce the speed limit and save people's lives. And the cost of introducing that will be paid back three times over in the first year from reduced casualties and burden on the NHS. So, I completely reject the characterisation the Member has of that policy.
In terms of the additional money we've made available for TfW, that is not a reflection of any poor decisions or mismanagement by TfW or by the Welsh Government. That's simply a reflection of the fact that the budget that was set at the time of franchising assumed a very dramatic increase in passenger numbers. That has not been possible to do because we've had the pandemic, and the pandemic has reduced patronage, and that has created a financial gap that needed to be filled. And if we didn't fill that, much of the rail network would shut down. Now, not content with wanting to shut down our airport, she seems content with wanting to shut down our rail network. And I do find the contradictory position the Member states—. Last week, she was telling people that she wanted extra money spent on a new train station at Caerleon. This week, she tells us the money spent on rail is a waste of money.

Natasha Asghar AS: Deputy Minister, firstly, please don't ever misconstrue my words; I know exactly what I've said in this place, and I've always said Cardiff Airport should be sold, it should be making a profit, and it should be advancing. I would love to see more stations across Wales, but, equally, I'm under the impression, and I take on board—and I've said this publicly and privately—that if the health service is failing, if education is failing, I'm more than happy for that money to be spent there,but I cannot fathom where this £125 million is going. But let me go to my question, Presiding Officer.
Deputy Minister, it's been just over a month now since your 20 mph speed limit project came into force. Despite what you and your colleagues are repeatedly saying again and again and again, it's abundantly clear that the public are still not on board with it, no matter how you paint this picture to me. Before 20 mph speed limits were introduced, a poll showed 46 per cent supported the measure, 34 per cent opposed it. Yet, last week a new poll revealed the tide has turned with people now starting to realise just how disastrous your scheme actually is. This new poll showed that nearly 60 per cent of people opposed your £33 million project, with just 29 per cent in favour. You said, Deputy Minister, and I quote:
'we're pretty confident that, as people get used to it, support will rise.'
Well, I hate to be the one to bring you back down to this planet, Deputy Minister, but support isn't rising, because the people of Wales don't want your 20 mph scheme. Deputy Minister, do you now admit you've made a mistake and got this scheme wrong?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I'm afraid the Conservative spokeswoman on transport doesn't understand how transport works, and that is a real problem for scrutiny and informed criticism in this debate. She says she doesn't want to close the airport, she simply wants to sell it and for it to make a profit. There is hardly an airport in the world that makes a profit. They are not a profit-making entity, and we rescued it from collapse in the private sector, because we thought Wales needs an airport. [Interruption.] Janet Finch-Saunders says it's a waste of taxpayers' money to save an airport. Yet, Conservative mayor Ben Houchen, who is lauded by her and her colleagues, has done exactly the same in the north-east. Airports need support, particularly after COVID when passengers numbers collapsed. So, the idea—. There's nobody who wants to buy a loss-making airport.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: But you're propping it up though.

Lee Waters AC: We support it because we think it's an important piece of economic and transport infrastructure, and that's why we do it. So, if she simply says, 'Sell it', well, that would mean it would close. So, that's the consequence of her approach and she needs to own that.
In terms of the 20 mph speed limit, it's been just over a month now since it was brought in, and it will take time for people to get used to it and for people to adapt. That was the experience in Spain, that was the experience in London, that was the experience in Edinburgh, and that is the experience we're having. Average speeds are down. Most people are complying. They're not sticking to 20 mph, but the number of people driving over 30 mph has dramatically fallen, and that brings the big road safety gains and we are confident this is the right thing to do.

Natasha Asghar AS: Wow, Deputy Minister, talk about being delusional today. Deputy Minister, you've repeatedly claimed that introducing 20 mph will add just one minute on to a journey time. Yet, despite your claims, a major bus operator has said that your scheme is, in fact, adding 12 minutes each way on journeys between Caernarfon, Bangor and Llandudno. As a result, Arriva is currently undertaking a large review of the network, with cuts and alterations on the cards, because 20 mph limits are having a big impact on punctuality. And, of course, it's not just public transport that is being affected by the 20 mph speed limits, it's affecting people's journey times, damaging people's livelihoods, slowing down emergency services and delivering a whopping £9 billion blow to the economy. Instead of supporting buses, supporting hard-working residents, supporting businesses, supporting our economy, you are actively choosing to punish them with this 20 mph scheme, and I'm not alone in this verdict. Just take a look at the record-breaking petition, which my colleague Laura Anne Jones did mention, calling for the 20 mph scheme to be scrapped, which has gained more than 460,000 signatures, and the countless protests that have been taking place all around the country. So, Deputy Minister, I accept what you've said that it's just the first month, but when is the next review going to take place? At what point are you going to realise and say,'You know what, this is the time we need to look back, take stock and do a u-turn on the decision'?And also, aside from that, will you listen to the Welsh public, and actually go ahead and scrap this scheme, before it does any more unnecessary damage? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Llywydd, I'm bound to observe that if I spoke to Natasha Asghar the way she speaks to me she would be the first person to complain. I think there are courtesies in this Chamber we should observe. I know she does these performances for social media, but this really isn't the best way to scrutinise, and I'd ask her to reflect on her behaviour.
On the impact on bus routes, we've been asking the bus companies for data that shows the impact that lower speeds has had on their performance. We've had very little, and we are keen to work with them to understand that. If there are particular corridors the bus routes rely on where the speed is an issue, then, of course, local authorities have the option to look at exemption criteria. They also have the ability to look at bus priority measures, which we are keen to support them on, and we are funding a large number of those this financial year to allow buses to deal with the congestion and travel at a faster pace. I think the truth is that a large number of bus companies were struggling with punctuality in the first place because of bus driver shortages, and they’ve taken the opportunity of both the change in bus funding and the 20 mph to recalibrate their timetables to create more resilient services that are reliable, because they can be confident they can staff them. There is some evidence to show that 20 mphin some areas is impacting journey times, but the picture is incomplete and we’re committed to work with the bus industry to understand it better.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: For clarification, there was nothing out of order in Natasha Asghar's contribution there that I heard. If I didn't hear anything in particular that I should have noted, then I'm sure the Deputy Minister will contact me after this session.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The Minister will be aware that Wrexham County Council has voted twice against their draft local development plan, which was intended to chart the course of development in the region, including the allocation of space for thousands of new homes. This rejection has raised concerns regarding the validity of the data on which the plan was based, notably the lack of up-to-date information concerning projected population growth and other critical factors that should inform planning for housing. The implications of this decision go beyond the immediate, affecting the future viability and suitability of housing solutions for generations to come. How can you plan for future housing developments if you don’t know where they’re needed, how many are required and who they’re being built for? So, in light of Wrexham County Council’s rejection of the LDP, partly due to outdated data, can the Minister provide information on what steps the Government is taking to ensure that local authorities have access to the most accurate and up-to-date data when formulating their development plans to ensure housing is fit for future generations?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon ap Gwynfor. I’m afraid the premise on which you’ve based your question is a little flawed. The LDP process is a process in which a plan, which is the council’s own plan, is subject to public inquiry, has an inspector appointed, goes through all of the stages; the council’s own officers and the inspector appointed to scrutinise the plan have all recommended acceptance to the council. The council has not accepted its own plan—I can’t emphasise enough that it’s its own plan that it hasn’t accepted—and it’s now subject to judicial review proceedings. So, I’m constrained as to what else I can say because of those judicial review proceedings. My understanding, though, is that the council isn’t able to put up a proper defence to those and it remains to be seen what will happen. So, I’m afraid I don’t really accept the basis of the question, Mabon. I’m more than happy to have a discussion with you as I already have had with other members of your group about exactly what’s happening, but I don’t think this is something that we can discuss in any detail in Plenary.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response, and I understand that you are restricted with what you can say in this regard. However, when you say that the council has rejected its own plans, it is a democratic body and the democratically elected members have refused the draft proposal. Wrexham County Council evidently voted against the local development plan, in part because they didn’t believe it would serve the needs of local communities. Considering the LDP that returned from inspectors only included a 9 per cent affordable housing component, rejection shouldn’t have come as a surprise. What’s apparent to many—including campaigners, local councillors and myself—is that the minimal commitment to affordable housing in the plan effectively gives free rein to developers to build unaffordable housing that only really benefits them, not the local communities. Even in this case, it’s possible that Welsh Government could force the plan on the local council and the population against the wishes of residents in the area. Local development plans must be used as a tool to serve communities, not to give carte blanche to large developers. Plans must prioritise the delivery of enough truly affordable housing to serve the needs of current and future communities. So, does the Minister agree with that statement?

Julie James AC: No, I’m afraid I don’t agree with that statement at all. The best way to stop speculative development in an area is to have adopted a proper plan. The lack of the plan is what causes the speculative development, because a council has no plan against which to test its planning applications, and that's self-evident. As I said, I'm not able to discuss the ins and outs of the situation in Wrexham because of the legal situation there, but I cannot emphasise enough that this is a plan that was taken through by the council through all of its systems, it went through the inspection and arrived at the final stage before it was voted against. This is not anything to do with democracy, this is entirely to do with a misunderstanding, I'm afraid, by the leadership of that council as to the actions they've taken and the consequences for their planning system, which are that they have no plan against which to measure any planning application.

Renewable Energy

Peter Fox AS: 3. What assessment has the Minister made of the accessibility of renewable energy for businesses? OQ60163

Julie James AC: Our renewable energy targets commit us to scaling up the deployment of renewable energy to support net zero, our communities and businesses in Wales. We are supporting strategic planning in enabling infrastructure to bring that energy to where it is needed and supporting businesses themselves to invest in renewable energy technologies.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. Minister, recent global events have rightly brought energy security to the top of the agenda. The Welsh Government's net-zero plan has steered the focus towards renewable energy production, and I welcome the steps taken to bolster our capability. However, as you'll know from my recent letter to you about a solar farm and a private wire scheme in my constituency, one that plans to supply electricity to major local businesses, these sorts of local projects that we need to see develop are coming up against real barriers in gaining an export connection agreement to the grid.
The local scheme in my area have been told that a connection agreement won't be available until 2029. Indeed, I've heard that some may have to wait as long as 10 years or more. Clearly, then, these blockages are at total odds with the Government's expectation on carbon reduction. Minister, how do you envisage getting around this impasse, and will you liaise with National Grid to find ways to ensure that local renewable projects can advance?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peter. We do a lot of work with National Grid, and I'm delighted that, after many, many years of resisting the idea of having a holistic network design, the Conservative Government has finally, and at the last moment, realised that a planned grid is something that's necessary, and not one that simply responds to requests to connect, which is what we've had hitherto. We published the 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report in July of this year, and that report was very clear that we need this new infrastructure and that we need to rewire the country to the twenty-first century, and the infrastructure also needs to be well designed and located sensitively.
We're using the evidence to inform regional and national electricity network plans and delivery programmes, and I'm very hopeful, though it's not yet confirmed, that we'll be able to be a demonstrator for that approach for the UK. I had a very good meeting with Ofgem very recently about the possibility of Wales doing that, and I really hope that that happens. In the meantime, what we clearly need is a lot more investment upfront by the grid in infrastructure so that we can get down these ridiculously long connection times. I have every sympathy with the Member about the length of time it takes to connect to the grid, but this is, I'm afraid, as a result of very serious underinvestment by the UK Government in this sort of infrastructure more generally.

Building Safety

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on progress to install fire-resistant cladding on buildings in Wales? OQ60135

Julie James AC: In Wales we continue to progress our remediation programme. The programme is taking a whole-building approach to fire safety, not one that targets cladding in isolation.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Obviously, representing the region of South Wales Central, here in Cardiff Bay we most probably have the greatest density of buildings that are affected by the fire cladding issue. Can you give an indication of how many buildings on which the remediation work has begun that the Welsh Government is supporting? And what work is being undertaken to reach out to buildings and, in particular the leaseholders in those buildings who have yet to see any progress being made in reinstating the fire safety credit worthiness of those buildings?

Julie James AC: Yes, I can easily do that. Ten of the UK's largest residential housing developers have signed contracts with the Welsh Government committing them to undertake the fire safety works in Wales. Works have started or will have started on 28 of those buildings by the end of this year, with estimated start dates given for 36 buildings. One building has had its work completed, and preliminary works and investigations continue on those remaining. I've also previously announced the orphan building pilot scheme. That's for buildings where the developer has either ceased trading, is unknown, or the building was developed over 30 years ago. Work schedules are being developed ahead of remediation works, which will be funded by the Welsh Government. We've got 30 buildings identified in the first cohort of those buildings. And in the social sector, they've received funding to remediate all fire safety issues, including cladding on buildings over 11m in height. To date, we've spent £94 million to deliver works on over 100 buildings in the social sector. Then, lastly, I did meet with stakeholders in Celestia, which I know Andrew R.T. Davies has raised a number of times, very recently in the last couple of weeks. We had a very productive meeting and we're developing a number of things as a result of that meeting.

Seagrass Meadows

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to scale up seagrass meadows? OQ60141

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government is committed to restoring and enhancing seagrass habitats, recognising their importance to biodiversity, carbon sequestration and flood prevention. Funding opportunities to scale up seagrass meadows have already been made available through the nature networks fund and the marine protected area management grant schemes.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. We know, don't we, Minister, that over 30 times more animals live within seagrass compared to adjacent sandy habitats. While seagrass occupies only 0.1 per cent of the sea floor, it is responsible for up to 18 per cent of the organic carbon buried in the ocean. As you also know, I believe too that we can make huge strides towards achieving net zero by embracing seagrass and blue carbon. The Wales seagrass network is a network of organisations and individuals with an interest and role in seagrass monitoring, the science, protection and restoration, or any statutory obligation in Wales. They are doing such tremendous innovative ways to grow seagrass and see it returned to piloted areas. It includes the Welsh Government; Natural Resources Wales; the Crown Estate; Swansea, Cardiff and Bangor universities; the two coastal special areas of conservation; the Wildlife Trusts; World Wildlife Fund Cymru; ports; and others. I'm going to drop a soundbite in here for Frankie Hobro of the Anglesey Sea Zoo, who works really hard on this seagrass restoration on a voluntary basis. So, currently, Project Seagrass chair the group, but they need increased and continued funding to keep this momentum going. So, will you commit? I know that finances are tight, but if we're serious about marine conservation and carbon zero, then we should be serious about providing financial support for the Welsh seagrass network, and indeed anybody else working to restore this vital, vital grass.

Julie James AC: Yes. Thank you, Janet. I absolutely do recognise that habitats have important benefits like enhancing biodiversity through increased feeding opportunities and nursery habitats, which are crucial to our response to both the climate and the nature emergency here in Wales. I recently had the real pleasure of visiting the seagrass meadow at Porthdinllaenwith Project Seagrass, to see and assist in the collection of seagrass seeds. I met the most delightful set of young people there, who were collecting the seeds—1 million seagrass seeds to be planted around the coast of Wales. They asked a whole series of questions and were very enthused about the project. We're currently exploring options to identify the most appropriate mechanism to deliver the targeted scheme for marine habitat restoration, specifically for seagrass and salt marsh, and we're doing that in conjunction with Project Seagrass, who are absolutely pivotal to this, and I really value the critical work that they do, and that the volunteers that support them do, to help us across Wales.
The nature networks fund is live now, and I would encourage any interested organisation to consider this. The funding is available for both project delivery and capacity building, to support the development of a future pipeline of projects. We've also made additional opportunities available, as I already said, through the MPA management grant scheme, and will continue to do that in the future. NRW are currently undertaking a series of works to identify habitat suitability for a number of habitat types in the Welsh marine environment, including seagrass, to help us in our decision making for where to target seagrass restoration in Wales, and we're doing that in conjunction with Project Seagrass. We've also had a list of key recommendations from the World Wildlife Fund for seagrass, and my officials are meeting with them to discuss how to take prospects forward. So, I think we will have a really good tale to tell about seagrass restoration, Janet, and I look forward to going snorkelling with you to look at the seeds growing any time soon.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We all want to see the photos. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 6. Mike Hedges.

Co-operative Housing

Mike Hedges AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase the number of co-operative housing units? OQ60138

Julie James AC: We remain committed to supporting the development of co-operative and community-led housing in Wales and to enabling people to take more control of their housing. Building on historical support, we have increased funding through Cwmpas to £180,000 revenue funding for three years, so that's 2022-23 to 2024-25, into the future.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Minister. Co-operative housing is a very popular form of tenure across Europe and north America. John Lennon lived in the Dakota Building, which was a co-operative housing development. It is much less popular in Wales than the rest of Great Britain. I do not believe that we can ignore a form of tenure that is popular throughout the world when we have housing need. They all have Government support and, crucially, had Government support to start up. What new support is the Welsh Government going to give to co-operative housing? And will the Government support the New York model on the conversion of large, empty buildings into co-operative housing?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mike. I share in your enthusiasm for co-operative housing. The Welsh Government has never moved away from our support for co-operative housing and community-led housing, and we've been providing funding to Cwmpas to support co-operative housing ever since 2012. And in 2019, we changed our approach to enable Cwmpas to deliver a broader programme of work, supporting all types of community-led housing, and that allows for local communities to decide on the best form of community-led housing for their area, and that could easily include conversion of a large building. Cwmpas’s Communities Creating Homes programme, since the 2019 change, has been jointly funded by the Welsh Government and the Nationwide Foundation, and it offers support for all community-led housing, with a focus on embedding co-operative principles. More recently, I'm really encouraged by the funding application from Gŵyr Community Land Trust to the land and buildings development fund, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the project develops. The project, I hope, will demonstrate proof of concept for use of the land and buildings development fund as capital funding for a community-led project, and therefore provide a direct funding route for community-led housing, in addition to all the existing routes through our social housing grant with registered social landlord partners. And that's really close by your constituency, Mike, in the constituency of our colleague Rebecca Evans, and I'm sure they'd welcome a visit by you.

Tom Giffard AS: We all know the real issue surrounding the housing supply in Wales—it's mainly the lack of it. So, it's a shame that councils in South Wales West are continuing to fail to meet housing targets consistently. In the January to March quarter of this year, under Swansea council's watch, just 57 new dwellings were completed. But it gets worse. In Bridgend, it was 23, and in Neath Porth Talbot, only 15. How can Welsh Government and local councils possibly be trusted to support social and co-operative housing when they can't even get the basics right? The law of supply and demand applies equally to housing. We need constructive solutions to reform the planning system and build the beautiful low-carbon homes of the future. Current red tape and complex bureaucracy means the deck is stacked in favour of the big players, shutting out smaller, local companies who should have a huge part to play in the solution. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government working to improve its record on housing, work with councils to reform the system, and get on with actually building the houses for the future generations will need?

Julie James AC: Well, Llywydd, once again I regret the fact that the Tories only ever want to run down people who are doing their very best in very difficult circumstances, caused almost entirely by the Conservative Party at the UK level, having made it near impossible to get both financing and funding for homes anywhere. The Westminster Government could also assist us by helping us get our vacant land tax through, which they've consistently blocked, which would help us unlock the land that is essential for this kind of community housing to be built. The Conservative Member perhaps hasn't been in the party long enough to remember that it was his Government that prevented councils from building houses for nearly 45 years, and has only very recently, actually, released the caps on the housing revenue account in local authorities that would allow them to build the houses in the first place. I think our councils are doing a splendid job, alongside our registered social landlords and, indeed, the co-operative and community sector, to get house building going, and I need no lessons off him on how to build low-carbon, decent homes and plan for them accordingly.

Social Housing

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. How will the Welsh Government further promote the building of social housing? OQ60150

Julie James AC: We remain committed to delivering our 20,000 social homes for rent this Government term, underpinned by record levels of funding—almost £1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. In Flintshire, £12.6 million was spent in 2022-23 and an allocation of £13.3 million for 2023-24 is providing those much-needed homes.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Minister for her answer and the commitment towards promoting social housing? The area I grew up in was mainly council housing, and, if I look back now, I understand the difference good quality, secure and affordable housing made to the life choices and life chances of residents. Minister, I was pleased to see yesterday the news that we are once again improving housing standards, and I congratulate you on this bold decision. We have to be ambitious about the building of more social housing; too many people are on waiting lists in inappropriate, insecure housing. We need to give those families the security that social housing offers. Minister, the planning system can be inconsistent when it comes to social housing applications. What can you do to ensure that social housing applications are not treated harshly and refused for reasons that have no real planning merit?

Julie James AC: We've been very clear of the positive impact that good quality, affordable homes that will meet the needs of individuals now and in the future can have. We know that investing in social housing reduces poverty, improves health and helps drive economic growth—that's why we are seeking to increase the provision by 20,000, and we've set out record levels of funding to achieve this, as I've just already said, allocating £1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. We also recognise the importance of providing social homes through the planning system, and our national planning policy, 'Planning Policy Wales', is very clear about the Welsh Government's policies. The need for social housing is clearly articulated in 'Future Wales', our national plan. We expect all local authorities to prepare a local development plan that includes policies on the delivery of social housing, and we require planning decisions to be taken in line with those plans. A community's need for social housing is one of the most important considerations of the LDP. We continue to support and challenge local authorities for the preparation of their LDP, and we continue to ensure that social housing issues are adequately addressed therein.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, not only do we have to encourage the building of social housing as a matter of some urgency, but we also have to ensure that the housing provided is fit for the future. Minister, whilst I note the introduction of the new Welsh housing quality standard, I question whether it goes far enough. What consideration have you given to ensuring that all future housing is built to passive housestandards in order to ensure low or no energy bills, as well as ensuring that every home is readily adaptable to meet future mobility needs for tenants?

Julie James AC: Thank you. We already insist that all social housing is built to low-carbon standards. There are three different standards, passive house is one of them, but low-carbon footprints for all of the standards that we accept for new build. We've also done that in the private sector by changing building regulations. Although that's not the subject of this, we do do it across all tenures. I absolutely agree with the Member that houses should be built that are fit for the future, and the Welsh Government is entirely committed to doing both that for the new build, and, indeed, as you heard only yesterday in my statement, bringing existing housing up to the same standard.

Ffos-y-frân Mine

Delyth Jewell AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the situation at Ffos-y-frân mine in Merthyr? OQ60148

Julie James AC: Yes. Following service of an enforcement notice on the site operator by Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council, the company has provided a unilateral undertaking to the council that it will stop operations at the site by 30 November.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. For over a year now, the operators at Ffos-y-frân coal mine have been extracting coal illegally, against the decision of the local authority and in direct contravention of planning laws. I've raised in this Chamber before that because of how little money—around £15 million—has been set aside by the mining company to restore the land, we are facing the very real prospect of there being a shortfall of over £100 million when it comes to cleaning up that site when they finally leave. Now, I realise that there's an ongoing legal case, but I'd like the Government, please, to commit to a swift public inquiry after that case to look into how the mining company was allowed to set so little money aside for restoration. The fact that so little money is set aside has fostered the likelihood that the site could be abandoned, with the costs for restoring it being left to the public purse.So, could you give a guarantee, please, to the people of Merthyr Tydfil that the original restoration plan that was promised to them will be completed, instead of a cutback version that will only make the site safe and ensure it doesn't fill with water, because our Valleys really do deserve better than that? And would you commit, Minister, to a swift public inquiry into how this situation was ever allowed to develop?

Julie James AC: I'm afraid, Delyth, I'm really constrained as to what I can and can't say, I'm afraid, still, because despite the unilateral undertaking I mentioned, there is still a live appeal against the enforcement notice, and the Welsh Ministers have a duty to hear that appeal. So, I'm currently giving some consideration to that. I can say that we are supporting the council to work together with NRW and the Coal Authority, to consider the contingency arrangements that are in place and to consider what would happen if the mine were to be abandoned. Restoration, however, remains the responsibility of the mine operator, who's still in place, and I'm very sorry, but I'm very constrained as to what else I can say.

Long-term Empty Homes

Rhys ab Owen AS: 9. What progress is being made to restore and sell the more than 22,000 long-term empty homes in Wales to alleviate the housing crisis? OQ60151

Julie James AC: We are providing a range of measures and funding packages to reduce the number of long-term empty homes in Wales, and in doing so, we are increasing the supply of homes across all tenures.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I was very pleased to read, as you know, the homeless White Paper, but whilst that is being slowly implemented, people are still, as you well know, struggling to find accommodation, and in the worst cases, dying on the streets. Cardiff alone has seen an increase of 120 per cent in rough-sleeping. It's such a shame, therefore, that in Cardiff alone, there are 3,288 empty homes, according to council tax data from this year, with 1,897 of those being exempt completely from council tax. Will the Minister investigate reusing these old properties for housing, as a green alternative to building new ones? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Well, yes, absolutely. We agree that empty homes are a blight and can be a nuisance in communities. They attract anti-social behaviour, pose environmental health problems, and contribute to a general decline in the neighbourhoods. But, as you rightly say, Rhys, they are a wasted resource, and that's particularly frustrating, given the current housing supply. We have given local authorities powers to charge council tax premiums of up to 300 per cent on long-term empty dwellings, as well as on second homes, and we've put £50 million investment over three years to bring 2,000 long-term empty properties back into use, to accelerate our work to bring empty properties back into use and complement our existing schemes.
That does include nearly £43 million of recyclable funding that we've given local authorities to provide interest-free property loans for landlords and home owners for home improvements or to renovate empty properties and bring them back into use. And it also includes turning commercial properties—empty commercial properties—into houses or flats, with landlords able to increase loans of up to £35,000 per unit or £250,000 per application. The scheme's being used to bring back around 1,800 units into use from empty properties across Wales, and supported improvements to a further 1,600 homes that were in danger of becoming empty, because they were in such poor condition. So, a total of 3,400 units have been brought back into use so far under the scheme. We've also got 330 town-centre residential units being brought back into use—so, those are the ones above the shops that are often empty—and we're bringing those back into use through our Transforming Towns loan scheme. I was able to go to Newport very recently and have a look at the really excellent scheme around Newport market there that's brought some of those houses back into use.
My only remark on the numbers that you quoted is that it's quite difficult to differentiate houses for sale from houses that are long-term empty from those numbers. So, some of the council tax exemptions, for example, will be because the house is on the market. So, we are looking to see what we can do to better improve the data on what is actually a long-term empty home—or an abandoned home, especially—or one that's actually on the market for sale and might have been on the market for some time.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 10, finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Llanharan Bypass

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 10. Will the Minister consider new and alternative proposals in line with the roads review criteria, following the decision to halt progress on the original Llanharan bypass project? OQ60137

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Yes, I've awarded £100,000 of the local transport fund to Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council to revisit the business case for the Llanharan bypass, in line with our response to the roads review recommendations, and I will consider the outcome of this work.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm delighted to hear that. Can I thank the Minister and his officials and others who joined me, Andrew Morgan, the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf, earlier this year in light of the original decision to halt the roads review and the impact on the original Llanharan bypass, and to look at alternative ways forward? And those alternative ways forward could include bus priority measures, could include enhancement of the existing proposals around active travel, could well include, in negotiation with local partners on the ground, enhancement not just of park-and-ride facilities at the train station, but cycle-and-ride facilities as well. But we do need an egress and access point to that development in Llanilid in order to actually recognise its potential, realise its potential as a significant infrastructure development. It isn't only housing; there is a new school there, and other things that are dependent on this. So, I'd welcome another opportunity, along with Andrew Morgan and local councillors, to discuss this, and see if we can put something that does fit the roads review criteria, does reduce demand, congestion and air pollution, but provides a properly coherent way to devise proper travel options for everybody in those communities.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, and the Member makes a good case to scotch the lie that we have banned new roads, because that clearly isn't the policy or the case from our new road-building tests. And in the case of the scheme in his constituency, we are working with the local authorities—and he's mentioned we had a very constructive meeting—and then there's now a challenge for us all to look for more creative ways of dealing with congestion and transport problems without the default approach we've had so many times in the past, simply to build a large road, which then quickly refills with traffic and adds to our carbon emissions. So, there is now an opportunity for Transport for Wales to work creatively with the local authority and the regional teams to look at the range of options of different modes of bus, active travel, car sharing, as well as providing an access road, as the Member mentioned. And I'd be very keen to continue a conversation with him to help us to find a way through this challenge.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister for Climate Change.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next set of questions will be to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. The first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Budget Cuts

Rhys ab Owen AS: 1. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the £75 million cut to his department’s budget on the Government’s educational and Welsh-language targets? OQ60152

Jeremy Miles AC: I have protected front-line services in schools, colleges and universities, and revenue reductions have been identified through a review of demand-led budgets and uncommitted funding across my portfolio. To reduce the impact on services, I have made decisions to reduce spending by reprioritising or deferring activity, rather than cutting or ending programmes.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Minister. These deep cuts to the budget do show the great problem in the lack of control and structure that this place has over the budget. We are over-reliant on decisions taken at the other end of the M4, but that's another issue.
There are many departments in this place that have suffered, but yours has been hit particularly hard. Compared to your £75 million, the economy department's cuts are £28 million, local government £29 million, and agriculture £17 million. Are projects and aspirations such as the million Welsh speakers by 2050 still sustainable in light of such cuts from Westminster? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for acknowledging the context in terms of the pressures on our expenditure and the reasons for that, and I would agree with his analysis with regard to those reasons. In terms of the cuts, the figures from my department, of course, are higher in absolute terms because the budget is far higher in absolute terms too, but as a percentage it's slightly less than some of the other departments. And the Cabinet was content to agree that there was a different approach in that regard.
The emphasis that I have tried to place on this very undesirable process is one where we were looking at where there was underspend, rather than making specific cuts to the kinds of schemes and plans that he was talking about. As a result of that, I am confident that the aim, as he mentioned, of a million Welsh speakers, that the plans that are currently in train towards that aim won't be detrimentally impacted by the statements I've had to make this year.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for providing some insight into the impact of the education cuts. However, in relation to the target of free school meals roll-out, I still have some reservations over the specific cuts as a result of the reduction in uptake. We know that many councils were predicting to overspend considerably in order to implement the FSM policy—Flintshire by £0.5 million, Gwynedd by £0.5 million, I believe, and Monmouthshire by circa £300,000, just to name a few—overspends that can be attributed to the rising cost of food, the increase instaffing required, and ongoing infrastructure. Councils have expressly told me that the funding model is not working, and unless this is recognised you are asking them to subsidise the increasing costs to fund your free school meals target. Minister, will you pledge today an absolute commitment to fully fund all costs associated with the roll-out of the free school meals policy?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for the question. I know that he and his party do not in fact support this policy at all, but just to give some assurance to those who do support the policy, the funding that has been released, which is £11.5 million from a budget of £70 million, relates to the fact that this is a demand-led grant to local authorities, and despite this reduction there remains sufficient budget to cover the current roll-out plans, which remain on track. This partly reflects our phased approach to the roll-out. So, we've effectively reviewed the demand and uptake of the offer in recent weeks to confirm the level of funding that is now required, and the level of funding that could, if you like, safely be made available. So, the funding model that we have has been built to accommodate increases in demand, and our grant offer commits us to paying claims from local authorities based on the level of uptake experienced rather than that projected—so, even where it’s higher than the figures that have been originally anticipated. So, we’ve allowed provision in the new budget to accommodate growth in that, and the Member will know that we have also committed to undertaking a review of the unit rate per meal, which is associated with the commitment, and we will have the outcome of that analysis later in this year, and I’ll be able to speak to our local government colleagues about the implications of that at that time. But I recognise the point that some local authority leaders have made in relation to that.

Estyn

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the findings in Estyn's Chief Inspector's Annual Report 2022-2023? OQ60136

Jeremy Miles AC: Estyn provides an important annual independent assessment of the quality of education and training provision in Wales. I welcome the chief inspector providing an early insight into inspection findings, as last year. It is important that we take time to reflect on the findings of the summary report.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that response. Obviously, in these early findings the chief inspector draws people’s attention to the fact that his inspectors in over two thirds of secondary schools found problems with grammar and punctuation. In your response to the press article that covered the interim report, there was confirmation that the Welsh Government had put in place actions to improve these figures in secondary schools, but didn’t go into what those improvements and what those measures were. Can you enlarge this afternoon on what exactly you have done when such a number of secondary schools—as I said, two thirds—found that in the grammar and punctuation there was need for dramatic improvement? I think urgent action is required in this particular area so that the cohort of learners aren’t missing out the opportunity to excel in school.

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member is absolutely right about how important literacy broadly, but punctuation and grammar as part of that, is. It's absolutely essential that our young people are able to leave school confident in their literacy and in their use of punctuation and grammar. He'll remember that I made a statement to the Senedd a few months ago on our literacy programme more broadly, and I'll be providing a further update in relation to that in the coming weeks.
But there are interventions at all levels of the school journey, including post 16. He'll know in particular about the advanced skills baccalaureate introduced in September, which will be taken by the majority of 16 to 18-year-old A-level learners, for example, and that includes elements in relation to supporting literacy. But I'll be able to report more fully on that in the coming weeks.

Mike Hedges AC: I drift between amazement and astonishment that there is a belief commonly shared in the Senedd in inspector infallibility. What inspection and external quality control mechanism is the Welsh Government using to ensure that Estyn inspection results are consistent and fair?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member is right: fairness and consistency of inspections obviously are essential to build public confidence in the Welsh education system. The Member obviously knows that Estyn is an independent body, but I'm aware that Estyn has a range of processes in place to ensure that question of consistency, which includes publishing a suite of inspection guidance documents that set out what they expect, what they inspect and how they expect inspectors to do that, which provides clarity and transparency. But there's also a robust ongoing training programme that ensures that all inspectors apply the frameworks consistently. There are annual updates for all its external inspectors. As he knows, most are current practitioners who carry out the role of a peer inspector on every team. And there's an audited quality assurance process for inspections and reports, which includes additional quality assurance and moderation where a provider is placed in follow-up.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I'm sure that you, like many of us, have enjoyed the excellent coverage of the Rugby World Cup on S4C. Being able to enjoy a sport you love in the Welsh language is something special. I only wish that Wales had lasted longer in the tournament so that there was more S4C coverage. However, I was disappointed about the remarks made to my constituent the former international player Mike Phillips regarding the standard of his Welsh by a now former S4C senior officer. Mike brushed off the comments and provided excellent analysis in Welsh. However, such comments could be damaging to the confidence of those whose Welsh may not be deemed perfect. And if we are to meet the 2050 targets, these kinds of attitudes must end. What action are you taking to ensure that such attitudes are not the main stream and that Welsh speakers of all abilities are encouraged to make use of the language without being judged?

Jeremy Miles AC: First of all, may I thank the Member for that question? It is in line with the emphasis that he gives, and I applaud him for that, in ensuring that the Welsh language is accessible to all and that we welcome everyone who seeks to learn and use the Welsh language. As he knows, I am an advocate for the idea that the Welsh language belongs to each and every one of us, including those who know only a few words, and others who are confident Welsh speakers, and that the important thing is to ensure that we use the Welsh language skills that we have at all possible opportunities and that everyone else should welcome people's efforts in doing that. It's been comforting to hear more and more Members in this Chamber using more Welsh in our discussions. So, we need to continue to send that message to speakers in all communications and in the way that we discuss the language too. It's not being fluent that's important, but ensuring that we use the skills that we have and learn more and more every day if we can.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Minister, for that response. On the other end of the spectrum then, we have the comment by Professor Nigel Hunt from Wrexham University about bilingual road signs. His comments have rightly been criticised across the board. I understand that he now no longer works for the university. What he said is a lazy assessment of the situation and displays an ignorance of the status of the language in Wales. However, and unfortunately, these views do resonate with a small number of people, often those living in communities that are close to the English border. I disagree with them and I believe that the language makes us stronger as a country. But does the Minister believe that the sacking of Professor Hunt was the right course of action for the university to take? And what is the Welsh Government doing to encourage those who remain sceptical about the value of speaking Welsh to get on board with the 'Cymraeg 2050' project?

Jeremy Miles AC: The particular steps that the university took are a matter for them, but, certainly, I disagree with the comments made by the professor, as many others do. But what I would say is that, for every individual who's looking to criticise the use of the Welsh language, there are far more people who feel an affection for the language, and, whether they speak the language or not, do want to hear and speak more and more of it. So it’s an opportunity for us to celebrate and welcome them, as well as ensuring that those kinds of views are unacceptable.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you once again for that response, Minister. Over the last few days, it was announced that the popular language app Duolingo is stopping several language courses, including Welsh. And whilst the course will not be removed, it does mean that the content will not be updated or added to. Duolingo said in 2020 that Welsh was the fastest-growing language on the app in the UK, with over 1.5 million people using the app to learn Welsh. Your department has been in touch with the company. May I ask what proposals the Welsh Government has made, and whether any response has been received from Duolingo management?

Jeremy Miles AC: Duolingo is one of the means that people use to access the Welsh language—one of the many means, of course—and it continues to be an attractive route, for reasons we could fully understand. I have written to Duolingo, asking them to reconsider the decision that they have taken. But as the Member mentioned, the Welsh language won’t be removed from the platform—it will remain there. And as the Member may recall, the Welsh language is one of the few examples—perhaps the only example—where it’s not volunteers that create the content for the app. For some time now, the National Centre for Learning Welsh has been responsible for developing the content of the app in the Welsh language, and they have built on the excellent work done by volunteers prior to that. So, in light of that, my understanding is that there has been more and swifter development for the Welsh language on the app than in some other languages. So it’s possible that the impact will be less detrimental on the Welsh language than on some other languages. But I would like to see Duolingo reversing its decision, not least for the fact that we do have a structure in place that is funded in Wales and is ready to continue to develop content on the app.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Minister, if I may return to the savings that were found this year, and specifically with regard to the initial teacher training and education budget. As you are aware, there are three incentive schemes open to students. Can you outline, please, how much savings were identified, and in which of these three incentive schemes that are available?

Jeremy Miles AC: I don’t have those figures in front of me, but I would be happy to share them with the Member.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much. It would be beneficial to know that, because obviously we really do need more teachers—that’s why these schemes exist. Because you have found savings this year, it would be beneficial to know which of those three schemes has been impacted, because we do need to be getting students and teachers into these areas—there is a reason why you’ve placed such emphasis on this. So why do you think that the number who are taking these incentives is lower than expected, and have you assessed yet what the implications of that will be?

Jeremy Miles AC: Of course, there is some relationship between providing incentives and an increase in numbers—it’s not entirely clear, but the general picture does demonstrate that there is a positive interrelationship between the two. I would say that this is one of the ways that we encourage people to become teachers, teaching Welsh, and other subjects too. It’s an important approach, and we will continue with those incentives next year for those reasons. Just to say, it’s the difference between what we anticipated would happen and what happened on the ground—that’s what the savings are in this case. So, we haven’t made cuts or prevented any individual form accessing this support. And what we forecast year to year does shift—you’d expect to see that. But I’d be happy to share those specific figures with the Member.

Antisemitism

Darren Millar AC: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote the adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism by the further and higher education sector in Wales? OQ60147

Jeremy Miles AC: Adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism—which, as the Member knows, the Welsh Government itself has done—is a matter for universities and FE institutions themselves. However, whilst I respect institutional autonomy, I have been clear with university leaders that I would like to see them adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

Darren Millar AC: I'm very pleased that you've made clear what the Government's position is on this. Earlier this year, the Community Security Trust published a report that showed a 22 per cent increase in university-related antisemitic hate incidents over the past two years, and according to the Campaign Against Antisemitism, there's been a huge surge of 1,350 per cent in antisemitic incidents across the UK since the start of the ongoing hostilities between Israel and Hamas in recent weeks.
We all agree that hate incidents should not be tolerated, particularly at publicly funded institutions. But, regrettably, unlike the overwhelming majority of universities in England and Scotland, the Welsh higher education sector, and the further education sector, is way behind in adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition. I appreciate what you say, that, from a legal perspective, it is a matter for Welsh universities to decide whether they adopt the definition or not, but the Government holds the purse strings for significant sums of income for these organisations. Therefore, can I ask you, will you now take further action on this front by requiring all Welsh further education colleges and all Welsh universities to adopt the IHRA definition as a condition of funding from the Welsh Government?

Jeremy Miles AC: As the Member, I think, knows from our previous discussions, I met Lord Mann, who is the UK Government's adviser on antisemitism, to discuss the approach in relation to educational institutions. I met also with the Union of Jewish Students, and with the National Union of Students Wales in relation to this, and I've raised this not just with vice-chancellors, but also with university chairs. He knows what my personal position is, and what the Government's position is. Universities in Wales are following the Universities UK guidance in relation to antisemitism and Islamophobia.
I do agree with the Member about the importance of bearing down on incidents of antisemitism, and, indeed, Islamophobia, in our education system generally. There are clear obligations in the anti-racist Wales action plan on all parts of our education system. This week, I'm meeting, together with the Minister for Social Justice, with representatives of the Jewish community in Wales to discuss their concerns about incidents of antisemitism in our education system, and it will be an important opportunity to hear their perspectives and what more we can do to support them in that.

Pupils with Additional Learning Needs

Altaf Hussain AS: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve support for pupils with additional learning needs? OQ60154

Jeremy Miles AC: The additional learning needs system changes both the legal framework and practices to help ensure children and young people with ALN receive the support they need to meet their individual needs.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for that response, Minister. Qualifications Wales's recent equalities analysis of the 2023 results found that pupils with ALN are three times less likely to achieve a grade of A/7 or above. These results simply underline the widely held belief that we are failing pupils with additional needs. It is clear that we can't continue on the current path. Minister, you have refused calls for mandatory training in additional learning needs for education staff. Will you now reconsider? How can we possibly hope to improve the education of young people with ALN if teachers fail to grasp the challenges faced by the 20 to 40 per cent of learners who are currently struggling within our education system? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: The results for 2022-23 will be the results of young people who haven't yet been through the education system in its reformed form, with the implementation of the additional learning needs reforms. As the Member knows, we are two years into a four-year transformation programme, which will have the effect of improving outcomes at all levels for young people with additional learning needs, and more closely addressing their particular needs.
In relation to the question of mandatory training, this is a subject that has been discussed in this Chamber on many occasions. You will know, I think, from those earlier discussions that we are tightening the requirements for accreditation for initial teacher education and for induction, and that we've invested in a large programme of professional learning, which is intended to support the workforce in relation to ALN implementation.
As he will know, I'm sure, from the Estyn thematic review most recently, there are some points in that review that we will take into account in relation to what further training and resources we can provide. And I am planning on making a full statement after the half term in relation to how we respond more generally to both our own findings and those from Estyn in relation to the ALN reforms more broadly.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, we have seen a number of petitions recently regarding support for pupils with additional learning needs. The petitions were a wide range, calling for reviews of the Act, calling for reform of the Act and also calling for funding for specialist provision, such as dedicated support plans. I'm aware that my colleague Jayne Bryant is leading an inquiry into the implementation of the ALN Act, as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, and I await the recommendations with interest, Minister. But what assurances can you give to the petitioners today that their views will be taken into serious consideration, going forward?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Jack Sargeant for that question. I'm obviously aware of the petition and the CYPE committee's ongoing inquiry on education reforms. And, just to be clear, I think the insights of parents and carers are absolutely vital and, whatever level of support a petition is getting, I think it's incumbent on us to listen to what we are hearing and to take that fully into account. As I mentioned just now in my response to Altaf Hussain, we are around halfway through the implementation of the new reform programme. And I think the insights of parents and carers have been vital in helping us understand how that is working on the ground, and the insights of the petitioners chime with those we are receiving both from other stakeholders and the parent events that SNAP deliver on our behalf. Also, some of the points made are consistent with the Estyn thematic review, which I also just mentioned.
I think, in hearing the voices of parents and carers in the way that we want to, there are clearly areas in the ALN system that need to be improved on, and we are working with local authorities, with other education stakeholders, to share those insights more broadly across the system and to identify those challenges, but very much informed by the voice of parents and carers as well, so that we can mitigate some of those perhaps unexpected variations that we've seen—there will always be a level of variation, but some of the unexpected variations—and so that we can develop solutions to those particular challenges.

Literacy Skills

Jayne Bryant AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government encouraging children and young people to develop their literacy skills? OQ60166

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, literacy is at the heart of the Curriculum for Wales as one of the mandatory cross-curricular skills. Literacy skills are key to our children and young people being able to access learning for life and in breaking down the barriers to reaching their potential in education and beyond.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. We rightly often talk about the whole-school approach to mental health. As reading is so important for all learners as a gateway to learning, there is merit in pursuing a whole-school approach to reading and literacy. What could the Welsh Government do to achieve that? And what assessment has the Minister made of the contribution of phonics to improving literacy and oracy?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that supplementary question. It's absolutely crucial, I think, that we take a whole-system approach to literacy and oracy, reflecting the point that the leader of the opposition asked about earlier as well. The oracy and reading toolkit, which we published in March, provides a package of support to schools and practitioners, so that they can try and identify opportunities to achieve high standards of listening, speaking and reading, and literacy more broadly, where the whole school community is working together in the way that the Member's question highlighted, and doing that in a way that is co-ordinated and consistent, and, importantly, in a very sustained way.
On the question of phonics, the curriculum framework sets out a clear policy approach to the initial teaching of reading and of systematic phonics. But I want to make sure that is being sufficiently emphasised and fully realised, if you like, in schools as they roll out the curriculum. So, we are working during this autumn term with the regions and with others to set out a consistent expectation of the role that phonics can play as part of a broader suite of interventions, and I'll be hoping to make a further statement in relation to that. But I think that role of a consistent national approach towards phonics as part of a broader suite of interventions is a really important aspect of how that whole-school approach can genuinely deliver on literacy for our young people.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, I just wanted to come back to the answers you gave to the leader of the opposition surrounding the Estyn chief inspector's comments in his interim annual report. Andrew R.T. Davies, of course, noted that the report mentioned that there were too many primary pupils making basic errors in grammar and punctuation that are not addressed well enough through teacher feedback. In fact, more than six in 10 of the 28 secondaries inspected in the 2022-23 academic year had a recommendation to improve the effectiveness of their teaching, while Estyn found that, in half of all the age-three-to-16 schools inspected, there were too many inconsistencies in the quality of teaching, and three of the seven special schools inspected received a recommendation relating to improving consistency in quality of teaching. Now, I know many teachers, as I'm sure you do as well, and they do a sterling job, I think, on behalf of their pupils, but, for me, there are too many references in that interim report in terms of the quality of teaching, and that is a concern. And ultimately, the Welsh Government, I think, is as responsible for teaching quality as it is for teaching provision. So, in light of the comments in this report, what steps are you taking to improve the quality of teaching that pupils do receive?

Jeremy Miles AC: I do recognise the points the Member is quoting from the report. I think it's also important to say, both in response to the points he's made and that the leader of the opposition made, that this is part of an overall assessment of all parts of our education system, and, perhaps understandably, the Member is highlighting some of the challenges, but I would encourage people with an interest to read the report to see the very, very wide range of very positive things about the work our teachers do day in, day out, which the Estyn inspectorate is also encouraging us to pay attention to.
It's absolutely important to make sure that the quality of teaching and learning is the very highest possible. Our national professional learning entitlement plays an absolutely fundamental role in ensuring that practitioners across Wales have access to high-quality professional learning throughout their career. As part of the work to embed that entitlement, we are introducing a new validation process that will ensure progressively that all the resources available are of the highest possible standard. There's a lot of available support and resources for teachers to identify their training needs in accordance with the professional standards as professionals. The challenge isn't, I think, the quality of the resource; it's sometimes around the navigability—how you go about finding it, in a way—where teachers who are very time poor, if you like, may find that challenging. So, there's a piece of work already under way in relation to that. And he will, I'm sure, know about the new professional learning area on Hwb that is intended to bring all of that together to make it easier for teachers to find. We are absolutely committed to making sure that teacher development, and practitioner development more broadly, is adequately resourced, and he will know that we have dedicated funding that we provide for schools and also time for practitioners to engage with professional learning opportunities, including an additional national professional learning in-service training day, backed up by funding.

Welsh-medium Childcare

Jane Dodds AS: 6. How is the Government supporting Welsh-medium childcare provision? OQ60164

Jeremy Miles AC: Our 'Cymraeg 2050' action plan sets out our commitment to expanding Welsh-medium nursery provision. We continue to work closely with Mudiad Meithrin and other partners to grow the Welsh-medium childcare sector, investing in the workforce and in building new settings in all parts of Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that response. Last week, the Welsh Liberal Democrats introduced our plan to transform childcare and early years' provision across Wales. One element of the report is Welsh-medium provision, which continues to be scarce across the country. Expanding Welsh-medium childcare is crucial in order to reach the aspirations of 'Cymraeg 2050'. The statistics are clear: nationally, only 15 per cent of settings provide through the medium of Welsh, and only 10 per cent offer bilingual care. We have a postcode lottery for Welsh-medium access across the country, and some parents have no choice but to use English-medium provision. I'm sure that you would agree that this is entirely unacceptable. I hope that you would accept our report and respond to its recommendations. But, how are you going to improve provision for children through the medium of Welsh and also highlight the issue?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'd be very interested to read the report. I share the priority that the Member has placed on the importance of this, for reasons that we would both share in terms of our ambitions for the language and for the provision for our children and young people.
After reaching the previous target of 40 new groups in the first three years, despite COVID, the Set Up and Succeed programme is now moving on to establishing 60 settings during this Senedd. Seventeen settings through the medium of Welsh were opened during 2022-23 under the brand of the Set Up and Succeedprogramme.
Since 2022, additional funding of just under £4 million has been allocated to Cwlwm over three years to add to the training through the medium of Welsh, as well as for the workforce and so on. That contributes towards the aim of additional staffing, and £70 million-worth of capital has been allocated to the sector in Wales, with a particular emphasis on strengthening provision through the medium of Welsh.
Earlier this month, 13,000 children had access to the childcare offer in Wales and, of these, just under 3,000, or 22 per cent, received that through the medium of Welsh.

Gareth Davies AS: While we are on the subject of the Welsh language, I would like to congratulate staff and pupils at Ysgol y Llys in Prestatyn and friends of the cylch on their recent successes in the Mudiad Meithrin awards, which recently carried out its seventh awards ceremony. The whole objective, as you will be aware, of Mudiad Meithrin is to create new Welsh speakers by supporting children and their families to access various education, play and childcare services. So, will you welcome the congratulations for Ysgol y Llys in Prestatyn and friends of the cylch for the fantastic work work that they do to promote the Welsh language and enhance the Welsh language experience in Denbighshire?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm sure that they will be very delighted with the fact that you have raised that in the Chamber today—the support that you are providing to your local school—and I'm very happy to endorse and share that. Congratulations to them.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you.

Jayne Bryant AC: I recently attended the opening of Wibli Wobli nursery, based in Rogerstone in my constituency. Founded by Natasha Baker, it is the very first Welsh language day care nursery in Newport. It's a wonderful nursery, and children who are attending do not need to speak any Welsh to join, but will soon gain all the benefits of learning Welsh at a young age. With a shortage of Welsh-speaking childcare professionals, one of the issues that has been raised with me is around the time that it takes to train. I understand that it takes about 18 months to qualify. Is this something that the Welsh Government could look at—whether it is possible to implement some kind of fast-track system? And how can the Welsh Government help support the already qualified childcare professionals who may wish to move across to Welsh-medium provision?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, congratulations to Wibli Wobli, and I'm pleased to hear them acknowledged in the Chamber as well. I think that the Member makes an important point about making every effort that we can to ensure that those who wish to be able to practise and provide important services through the medium of Welsh face as few barriers as possible to do that. I will be very happy to consider further with officials whether there is more that we can do in terms of the time frames that the Member referred to in order to maximise the opportunities for people to do that.

Degree Apprenticeships

James Evans AS: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the uptake of degree apprenticeships? OQ60153

Jeremy Miles AC: Higher level apprenticeships, as are all other apprenticeships, are the policy responsibility of the Minister for Economy, but we work closely, of course, across portfolios. The latest figures show increases in starts from academic years 2019 to 2022, and we recently launched a new rail engineering degree apprenticeship, which people will be starting from this January.

James Evans AS: I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. We all know that going to university isn't for everybody. I recently visited a school in my constituency, and I talked to them there about the importance of going to do degrees—or degree apprenticeships as another option for them to enter the world of work. So, I would be very interested to know what work the Welsh Government is doing with our school leavers to make sure that they know of the range of options that are available to them when they go and leave school, so that they can enter degrees or degree apprenticeships where they can actually learn while working.

Jeremy Miles AC: I think the Member makes a very important point. He will, I'm sure, have read the report of Hefin David in relation to transitions from education to employment, which is very much on a similar theme. I know he shares that view and I feel very strongly about that. We have to make sure that our young people are getting the best possible, tailored, bespoke individual advice that relates to their personal circumstances and their personal ambitions. We should absolutely be making it clear that a degree apprenticeship is a very attractive opportunity for many young people. He will know we're consolidating the expansion of degree apprenticeships into new sectors and increasing existing pathways to meet the programme for government commitment that we have. We have prioritised apprenticeship investment into those sectors that we feel will do most to support economic growth and community cohesion, so net zero and the foundation economy are a part of the underlying themes for some of those. And he will know that in addition to the work on the rail apprenticeship, we are currently devising the apprenticeship in the construction sector. So, I hope that will provide opportunities for many more of his constituents and mine and indeed others.

Ocean Literacy

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. What steps is the Minister taking to embed the principles of ocean literacy in education? OQ60140

Jeremy Miles AC: Learning about the environment is mandatory in the Curriculum for Wales. There are opportunities within the curriculum for schools to include learning about ocean literacy, sustainability and the impact of human action on the environment in their curriculum.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. So, an ocean literate person understands the essential principles and fundamental concepts about the ocean. They can communicate about the ocean in a meaningful way and they are able to make informed and responsible decisions regarding the ocean and its resources. Now, a project worked on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Scottish Government and Natural Resources Wales found that knowledge gaps exist among young people for several marine terms. For example, 'eutrophication', 'the UN decade of ocean science', 'blue carbon', 'natural capital', 'carbon sequestration', 'ocean literacy', 'marine citizenship', 'ocean acidification', 'ecosystem services' and 'nature-based solutions' are not well understood. Less than 50 per cent of respondents understood each of those terms. So, 43 per cent of people mostly get their information about the ocean from television or radio and the news. We can do better. The National Marine Educators Association and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization have excellent resources available online for schools. So, what steps could you take to improve ocean literacy throughout the curriculum?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I do recognise that, certainly in the past, the challenges that the Member has articulated today have been very real. But I do feel that the tide is turning. I'm sure that the Member will know that a working group of the Wales Coasts and Seas Partnership, which is led by Natural Resources Wales, to which she referred in her question, is drafting an ocean literacy strategy to connect people with the marine environment and improve its management and resilience. And the action areas in the strategy, importantly, include improving knowledge and skills and embedding ocean literacy into education. She will also, perhaps, be aware that eco-schools have developed a suite of resources titled 'Be the Wave', which covers ocean and seas. Additionally, my officials are currently working with the Wales Coastal Monitoring Centre to publish a suite of resources on climate change and its coastal impact. In her own part of Wales, the GwE consortia are working with BP and with EnBW, who are developing offshore windfarms to support schools with information in relation to subjects related to fixed offshore wind.

Professional Learning for Teachers

Vikki Howells AC: 9. How is the Welsh Government supporting teachers to access opportunities for high-quality professional learning? OQ60145

Jeremy Miles AC: Ensuring high-quality teaching through career-long professional learning is integral to our vision for education in Wales. I recently announced a new national endorsement process to quality-assure professional learning provision for the education workforce. Professor Ken Jones will lead this work, supported by a panel of experts and practitioners.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I welcome your statement of 14 September and the work of the soon-to-be-established national endorsement panel. Do you agree with me, Minister, that high-quality professional learning is crucially important in supporting the roll-out of the new curriculum, allowing teachers to continually benefit from new developments and approaches in the field of education, and also allowing the sharing of best practice through Hwb?

Jeremy Miles AC: I do share that view with some diffidence, given her professional background and her knowledge of this at first-hand. But the professional learning entitlement, which is now a little over a year old, I think is already playing an important role, really, on that journey to making sure that all practitioners have access to quality PL and so that they can make sure that their professional development needs are met. I think the twin challenges that we are trying to resolve, partly through the work that Professor Jones and the other experts will help us with, are, on the one hand, navigability, to make sure that the huge content library that exists can be easily navigated so that practitioners who are short of time can find what they need to find simply and in a way that is curated helpfully for them. Our creation of the new space on Hwb is the beginning of that process. But, secondly, there's that idea of assurance, so that every resource available via those pages on Hwb ultimately are ones in which practitioners can have confidence as having been reviewed by practitioners or by other experts and given the seal of their blessing. So, it's an exciting new stage, I think, in our professional learning journey in Wales, driven by that entitlement, which I should also say is available to teaching assistants in the same way that it is to teachers, which is also a new development.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 10, Adam Price.

Higher Education Institutions

Adam Price AC: 10. What recent discussions has the Minister had with higher education institutions regarding their financial sustainability? OQ60159

Jeremy Miles AC: Over the summer months, I have had conversations with higher education institution leaders and chairs, and with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, about the financial stability of the higher education sector in Wales. Discussions are ongoing with officials and Ministers on this very important issue.

Adam Price AC: I understand that, at a recent meeting of the sector that you, Minister, were present at, a number of the institutions represented there said that they were considering the possibility of merging in response to the challenging financial situation. Can you confirm that that information and impression was correct and what is the Government's stance when it comes to further mergers in the sector in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: No-one's put that proposal to me. Discussions, of course, are ongoing in light of the tertiary education and research commission on how providers within the post-16 sector can collaborate more effectively in many different ways. That is part of the mindset at the heart of those reforms to ensure, for the benefit of learners, that there is far more collaboration and partnership across the sector.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister for that session.

3. Topical Questions

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 3 is the topical questions. There were two questions received today. The first is from Jack Sargeant.

Storm Babet

Jack Sargeant AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government will work with partners to support communities following the impact of Storm Babet? TQ887

Julie James AC: I know the devastation flooding can cause to communities. The full detail of storm Babet's impact on communities in Wales is still emerging, but, once known, I will issue a written statement to Members, as committed by the Trefnydd during yesterday's Plenary business questions.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Minister for that answer and for the commitment of the written statement in due course. Minister, you'll be aware, over the weekend, the areas of Sandycroft, Mancot, Broughton, Pen-y-ffordd and surrounding communities were badly impacted by storm Babet. This is not the first time that houses in these communities were flooded. Following previous incidentsin 2021, in particular, I produced a report that called for a number of sensible steps to mitigate the possibility of future flooding. Now, whilst work has taken place, it’s clear progress has not been quick enough. Responsibility lies with the local authority, with Natural Resources Wales, with Welsh Water and the utility companies, but we do need additional resources to be made available to give householders some certainty about the future. Minister, we also need joined-up working from the agencies I’ve listed responsible. How can you use your office in the ministry for climate change to ensure this happens?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jack Sargeant, for that question. We’re obviously working very closely with NRW, with the water companies, with the UK Government, actually, and with local authorities in their role as lead local flood authorities to move to both flood and coastal erosion defence and also mitigation measures. As I know Jack Sargeant knows, the risk management authority—or the local council, as it’s more commonly known by people in the area—needs to put forward schemes to propose them for funding. I know that the local council there has had a number of schemes in the pipeline between 2010 and 2018, and they have applied for a couple of small schemes since then, but we will work with them to make sure that they have got the right pipeline in place for those schemes coming forward.
I also want to highlight that in terms of what the community can do to help itself, Natural Resources Wales does work with local communities to get flood resilience forums going and to make sure that people are aware of how to listen for flood warnings if they’re in a flood-risk area, and then what to do to make sure that they stay out of harm.
I just want to express my deepest sympathy for the families of those who lost their lives in both England and Scotland over the weekend, and indeed to express my gratitude for the large number of public service staff who worked around the clock during the storms in order to try and keep as many people safe as they possibly could.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: You’ll be aware, Llywydd, that I actually tabled an emergency question yesterday on this matter that was refused, and I am thinking, if storm Babet, with all the terrible deaths and the injuries and everything and the fact that it was just devastating—. What does merit an emergency question? Now, lives, as we mentioned, were lost and my thoughts and prayers go out to all of those families involved. Trains were cancelled, the A483 in Powys, the A55 in Flintshire and other roads were impassable. The fire service received a staggering number of calls. Now, in Llandudno, which of course has low-lying sea levels, and compounded with a high tide, actually—. Three areas in my constituency of Llandudno—well, just in the Llandudno area—were seriously affected: residents trapped, others evacuated, many fighting to hold back water with towels, contradictory information about sandbags, no joined-up plan on the ground, and a fire officer informing me that he couldn’t get hold of Conwy County Borough Council and Welsh Water. What struck me most, however, was the fact that whilst I was in touch with the council leader at Conwy, other rescue services were out and about doing their very best, but when speaking to North Wales Police and the fire service, there didn’t seem to be an apparent plan in place. There was a definite information and communication vacuum. Now, I’ve already taken it upon myself to raise concerns with the council leader, with the view of holding a virtual joined-up meeting of all the multi-agency teams who you would expect to be working in such situations very closely indeed.
So, you’ve previously stated, Minister, that there is this guidance, there are plans in place, so in reiterating the question from Jack Sargeant: what steps are you taking to work with all partner agencies to ensure that there is better joined-up thinking and a plan in place, a strategic approach, when such disasters happen, for now, or next time, or indeed any future storms, and also how we as Members can be kept fully informed correctly through the day? Because we heard lots of rumours the pumping station had packed up; it hadn’t packed up, it was overwhelmed. And in 1993—we're all terrified of that scenario happening again, and people are now still contacting me in fear of what they witnessed again on Friday. So, really, I’m just asking again: we need a strategic joined-up plan, all agencies feeding into it, and whatever help you can give, I’d be very grateful. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Well, thank you, Janet. As I said, we're still doing the ongoing aftermath investigation, as we always do every time there are severe storms. I just want to make it really clear that nobody in Wales lost their life. I'm very, very sad about the individuals in England and Scotland who did, but I think it's important to be accurate about that.
We did have a co-ordinated response out. As I say, I'm very grateful to all the blue light responders and NRW staff, Dŵr Cymru staff and Hafren Dyfrdwy staff, all of whom worked all through the storm. A number of staff from the electrical companies also worked through, trying to make sure that services stayed connected. We also had the local resilience fora in operation, and a number of the other pan-Wales organisations. I, myself, was getting situation reports throughout the whole of the incident.
But we can, Llywydd, expect more of these incidents as climate change escalates. It is not going to be possible unless we implement severe net zero climate change mitigation and adaptation plans to do anything about this. And I know the Member is sincere in what she says, but it does not help that her party oppose every single thing that we ever do to try to mitigate climate change. We must keep the temperature of the world down below 1.5 degrees over base, or we will be looking at this kind of thing on a very regular basis. So, absolutely, Llywydd, we need to have the best response once these things are happening, but, if we're to mitigate this, we really must act together and be rather more radical than the Member's party would have you believe.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: On Sunday morning, flood defences in Trevalyn near Wrexham weren't fully utilised, leaving, of course, homes ankle deep in water. I know Natural Resources Wales have confirmed that they're investigating why the defences weren't fully used, and residents are quite rightly asking why a slatted barrier and a pump usually used before water levels rise weren't employed. Now, it would be interesting to hear what your understanding is of what went wrong there, or at least by when do you expect Natural Resources Wales to report back to you on what went wrong there. But one of the concerns around the Wrexham local development plan, of course, is that it will allow large housing developments in areas prone to flooding. That's what's happening with key strategic sites on either side of Wrexham, as well as on a site in Rossett that is actually next door to the housing that was inundated with floodwater at the weekend. So, do you still, Minister, think it's appropriate to impose Wrexham's rejected LDP on the area, given the now heightened concerns around flooding on some of the sites that are included in the plan?

Julie James AC: Well, Llywydd, I've already answered several questions on Wrexham's LDP. Nobody's imposing anything on them. This is the council's own LDP. It and its officers took the LDP through all of the stages right to the final point, and the thing that's causing them not to be able to respond to speculative development is the lack of an LDP. So, I fear the Member is badly misinformed about the effect of what happens when you aren't able to adopt your own LDP.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you, Jack Sargeant, for raising this today. My property was impacted by flooding, and I couldn't get home either to do anything about it because the train lines were flooded as well. Landowners need to take responsibility. They need to make sure that their ditches, culverts are cleared. I see that fields, ditches and everything now pour onto highways, and the highway drains can't cope—the very old Victorian infrastructure.
Very often, people just blame the council and expect the council to provide sandbags, but it's not really their responsibility. Going forward, I was wondering if you could look at the mapping of drains. I know that, at one time, council workers used to know where all the drains and ditches were, but, during 10 years of cuts, that information has not been passed on. They're not able to keep clearing ditches. It's the same with NRW; it's very costly, very expensive, and it is up to landowners under riparian law. So, if we could map where the culverts and ditches are, who is responsible, and if some information could be produced by NRW and the council to give to landowners saying, 'Under riparian law, you are responsible for maintaining your ditches and drains', I think that would be helpful. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch. Diolch, Carolyn. This year alone, we're investing over £74 million in flooding and coastal erosion risk management in Wales. That's the highest ever annual spend on flood risk management in Wales to date. We already know, as you've said, that it's not possible to stop or prevent all coastal erosion and flooding, but we are taking steps to reduce the consequences and help create more resilient communities across Wales. I'm really sorry to hear of your personal experience. I was returning from north Wales myself on Friday, and we were unable to get through quite a lot of the road network because of flooding. It was a very severe storm indeed, and I want to, as I continue to say, thank the emergency services for all the work they were doing. Some extremely wet public servants were out telling us where the roads were blocked and where we could go, and I know that they were there for the rest of that night.
We are doing an extensive mapping service, which, indeed, as you point out, will support better understanding and wider adaptation to protect our communities from risk. I absolutely agree with you about understanding how your home is situated and what your responsibilities are, if you are near any kind of watercourse, to keep that watercourse clear and to make sure that it's functioning properly, and indeed to understand what the alert mechanisms are if there's a sudden deluge. I mean, there was a deluge on Thursday and Friday. We actually watched some of the rivers—. On our journey back from north Wales, we actually watched some of the rivers fill up—it was so fast. So, we need to make sure that we are creating more resilient communities across Wales. I do hope people will take advantage of the resources on NRW's website, and indeed of their community officers, to help get more resilient communities and to help people understand what they themselves can do to keep themselves safe, and indeed what flood resources there are available. We will of course be investigating all of the flooding that occurred, trying to understand what caused it, whether the flood defences were overwhelmed or didn't function properly, and what we can do to increase the adaptation.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is supposed to make public bodies listed in the Act, including local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, NRW, think more about the long term, work better with people and communities and each other, look to prevent problems and take a more joined-up approach. However, a resident of Leeswood, Flintshire, e-mailed, 'Although predicted, extreme rain conditions on 19 and 20 October caused flooding and distress to many, and damage to their property and livelihood. One feature that is ever present is the lack of maintenance to rainwater gullies, which are typically blocked with leaves and sediment. Although this has been reported to NRW, who are responsible for this watercourse, they failed to act in any capacity.'
After I intervened on behalf of flooded residents in Broughton, Flintshire, in 2021, Flintshire County Council detailed the actions they would take, including that priority would be given to elderly and vulnerable residents and known flooding black spots. However, e-mails received last weekend after the same properties flooded again related, amongst others, to a single parent with multiple sclerosis asking why weren't measures taken to provide the residents in the at-risk homes with sandbags.
And a final example: a housing association e-mailed after ground-floor flats in Mold, Flintshire, were again flooded, stating, 'We know that the drains are inadequate and have seen a scheme designed many years ago, which would provide a long-term solution.' This 2017 feasibility study, commissioned by Flintshire County Council, recommended that a copy of the report be submitted to the Welsh Government for confirmation that grant funding was available, but the scheme was never implemented. So, what is the point of the future generations Act if avoidable failures such as these are allowed to continue to devastate lives?

Julie James AC: Well, thank you, Mark. As I've said a number of time already now, it is early days. We are looking into all of the issues that occurred throughout the flooding, which was widespread as a result of the storm. I will put forward a written statement once we know what the issues were. We will be investigating all of the issues around whether flood defences were inadequate or overwhelmed or not working, where there are additional flood defences required, and we will be talking to the local authorities, in their risk management authority capacity, about the schemes they are bringing forward for flooding. I'm not yet in any position to be able to report back on that, since it's only a few days since the storm.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased that this subject has been raised today by Jack Sargeant, as large parts of my constituency are vulnerable to storms, particularly in the areas that run parallel to the River Clwyd in Rhuddlan, St Asaph and also in lower Dyserth, given it has a waterfall and adjoining river that flows through the village. And in previous years, and indeed over the weekend last weekend, the rivers and waters swelled, burst their banks, leaving my constituents' businesses and their properties in a high degree of vulnerability every time we experience a sustained period of rainfall. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could inform my constituents what steps the Welsh Government are taking to address these environmental realities in the Vale of Clwyd, and what conversations has or will the Minister have with partners and stakeholders in reducing the consequences of adverse weather conditions in Denbighshire so that my constituents can be reassured that the Welsh Government are doing all that they can to mitigate these risks and provide public reassurance as we head into the winter period.

Julie James AC: Thank you. So, as I've said, Llywydd, a number of times now, we are in the process of the lessons learned that we always undertake after serious flood events. I would encourage Members though to make sure that they're aware of the resources that are available. We do have advice and support on how to join a community flood group, along with a list of organisations who provide support for flood groups, such as the National Flood Forum and local resilience forums. They're all available on NRW's website. We also have a number of community flood plans across Wales—74 as we speak. There are 37 communities in south Wales, 13 in mid, and 24 in north Wales taking action in terms of those community flood plans, so it's very possible that the Member has a community flood programme already in his area, and I would encourage him and his constituents to get onto NRW's website and make sure that they are taking advantage of all of the available resources.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'm afraid I'm not filled with much confidence as a result of the responses that I've heard today. I had areas in my constituency also that experienced flooding over the past weekend, places such as Llanddulas, Mochdre, parts of Colwyn Bay, Pensarn in Abergele, and many roads in the rural communities. It does strike me that one of the problems has been a cutback in the routine maintenance visits by NRW on the areas for which they are responsible. We know that there will now be section 19 reports and, obviously, NRW will need to undertake a review. I have to say, I've had a single e-mail from NRW, as have other Members of the Senedd, since these events. That's not good enough. We've not been offered any virtual briefings with NRW in the wake of what has happened. And I know that you say we're going to learn lessons and that you'll review these things and something will come forward for discussion, but it took two and a half years after the floods in 2020 and 2021 before a report was laid in this Senedd. I don’t want to be waiting two and a half years to see what could have been done to prevent some of the flooding that we all experienced last weekend. So, what assurances can you give us, Minister, that we won't be waiting two and a half years, that this will be a rapid exercise to look at the issues and challenges that people faced, so that we can learn lessons quickly and, more importantly, act more quickly in order that people's properties can be defended in the future?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Well, I think, Darren, you're conflating two different types of report there. So, the report you're talking about was the overarching report into the usefulness or otherwise of the section 19 reports—that's what took the time to do. The section 19 reports themselves did not take that amount of time, of course, and neither did NRW's report, so I do think it's important not to conflate the different sorts of report that we looked at. The one you're referring to by Professor Elwen Evans KC is one which was an overarching report that looked at a very large number of other reports and took an overview of them. So, I think you're conflating two timescales there.
Llywydd, as I've said a number of times, it's obviously only a few days since storm Babet. We will need to make sure that we do the lessons learned. I can tell you that, so far, we know that 64 confirmed properties were flooded internally. They were in Conwy, Flintshire and Powys. We've received updates from around half of our local authorities so far. They're all early indications. The focus is still currently on response. The flood warning was not removed until yesterday in some parts of Wales, so this is very early days, and we will, of course, be expecting our various public sector authorities and our resilience fora to come forward with their reports in good time, but it is important to get it right and to understand the lessons that need to be learned.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister. The final topical question is from Jane Dodds.

Dŵr Cymru

Jane Dodds AS: 2. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that Dŵr Cymru complies with its operational permit conditions following concerns over compliance against their discharge permits? TQ889

Julie James AC: We've been very clear that we expect water companies to work harder to deliver excellent services across all areas of their operation. My officials and I are working closely with Dŵr Cymru and NRW, who are the environmental regulators and are therefore responsible for water company permit compliance.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Minister. I was appalled, as I'm sure others were, by the revelation last week that Dŵr Cymru has been illegally dumping untreated sewage from dozens of treatment plants for years. This utter disregard for the rules meant to protect our precious, natural environment and our health is unacceptable. The scale of Dŵr Cymru's failure is astounding. The fact that nearly half of their waste water treatment plants break permit rules is shocking enough, but the situation at Aberteifi is particularly staggering, where untreated sewage has spilled out onto the coast for over 200 days per year since 2019.
We've all received the response from Dŵr Cymru about the report, which tells us that they've known about the issues and have been investigating now for a number of years, but that work on a new plant could take up to four years—four more years of illegal spillages and habitat catastrophe. I had little confidence before that Dŵr Cymru had a grasp of the situation, and now, following the report from the BBC, I have none at all. It does call into question how many other plants are in this position and what else we don't know.
I raised with the First Minister and the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee the desperate need for there to be an independent and comprehensive review of Dŵr Cymru's operation and performance. I would therefore ask you, Minister: will you now commit to launching a full, independent inquiry into the failures of Dŵr Cymru, because the public deserve answers? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jane. I do absolutely expect water companies in Wales to work very much harder to deliver excellent services to customers across areas of operation. I have a number of meetings in train this week with Dŵr Cymru and NRW, including one with the two of them together, to discuss a number of issues, including this one.
I'm sure you know—. And I'm not here to be a spokesperson for Dŵr Cymru, far from it, but I'm sure you know that they have admitted that there are problems relating to technical issues and salt-water intrusion at the Cardigan waste water treatment works and that they're planning a £20 million investment. I think you just said that you were aware of that.
I just want to be—. Without making any excuse for them whatsoever, as I'm just as appalled as you are, I just want to be sure, though, that we're being accurate about it. So, just to be really clear, the classification of Poppit sands bathing water, which is in near proximity to the treatment plant in question, has retained its excellent classification and that continues to be the case. I don't want to alarm people who use those waters unduly. That's without excusing it, though, Jane. I absolutely agree with you that this is not good enough and we need to do something about it.
But like all of these things, there are a lot of politics behind this. The way that water investment has been treated over the last 14 or 15 years is to say that the water companies can only invest if they put the price of that onto the bills of their customers. That's not the way we invest in other infrastructure. We don't invest in roads in that way, for example, and there would be an outcry if we did, I'm sure. So, there are some political choices there being made here by the Conservative Government that are driving the lack of investment, and I sincerely hope that we'll get a Government that has a different approach to that in place, so that we can make the multi-million-pound, indeed billions of pounds', investment in our infrastructure for water that we really need, if we're to protect our natural environment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Let's be honest here, it's no good pointing the finger at the UK Government. The situation in Wales is bad in terms of the pollution incidents we have. Welsh Water themselves have only recently admitted to the BBC that they have illegally spilled untreated sewage from dozens of treatment plants for years. Between 40 and 50 waste water treatment plants are currently operating in breach of their permits. Professor Hammond requested data on Welsh treatment plants, and found that 10 had been releasing untreated sewage at times when they should have been treating it. The data provided showed that Cardigan almost never treated the amount of sewage it was supposed to; it has illegally spilled untreated sewage for a cumulative total of 1,146 days, from the start of 2018 to the end of May 2023. What makes this crisis even worse is that Natural Resources Wales have known about it for eight years. In terms of Cardigan, Minister, NRW has issued enforcement notices, but no fines. As we have already stated, what is the point of enforcement if the companies just think, 'Oh, we can get a caution, we can get a warning', but there are no actual measures taken against them—no fines? NRW are now looking at data from 101—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Janet, you need to ask the question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —treatment plants. What measure will you take to address themajor failure to publish the storm overflow report? It was due in March of this year. We cannot allow this pollution to continue. And given that the situation is worse in Wales, we should stop now blaming the UK Government.

Julie James AC: Well, Janet, I can hear that you don't want to blame the UK Government, and of course you don't, because you support them. But there's no way around the fact that, without the infrastructure investment that's needed at Government level, we cannot solve this problem. The only way that Dŵr Cymru, or any other water company in the whole of the UK, can make investment is by adding money to bills; I'm sure you'd be the first to say that you don't want bills to be more expensive. Also, the issue at Cardigan is unresolvable without significant investment in the upgrading of the infrastructure—everybody agrees that.
On this specific matter, I know that NRW would rather see the investment go back into the site than on a fine. A fine will merely take more money away from Welsh Water so that they can't actually invest in the infrastructure that we need. So, I'm afraid, as usual, Janet, I suppose your heart must be in the right place, but your solution is both impractical and improbable.

Cefin Campbell AS: As we've already heard, there are growing concerns regarding Dŵr Cymru's compliance with their operational permits. The environmental implications of any lapses are significant, and public outrage on seeing raw sewage and effluent being pumped into our seas and rivers is completely understandable. It's essential therefore that we hold Dŵr Cymru accountable, and ensure that necessary measures are in place to protect our environment and the interests of the people of Wales. So, improvements to treatment plants are clearly necessary, as we've already heard, but they're also costly. However, it's crucial that any capital investments in water treatment infrastructure do not negatively impact customers—and that is something we've heard from the Minister already. We must strike a balance between safeguarding our environment and ensuring affordable access to clean water for all.
It's also a concern—again, we've heard this already—that NRW, which is the regulator in this instance, has very real limitations in resource and capacity to enforce compliance. Surely, it's our responsibility to ensure that NRW is equipped to protect our environment effectively. So, could the Minister clarify therefore how she intends to ensure that any capital investments by Dŵr Cymru will not lead to increased costs for customers? And also, how does she plan to empower NRW to take more decisive action against Dŵr Cymru when compliance issues arise? And what financial support, if any, can Welsh Government provide to enable Welsh Water to meet its environmental responsibilities?

Julie James AC: Thank you for that, Cefin. And again, I can hear your concern, and I share your concern. But there are some fundamental issues here with the way that the pricing structure for water works. I have a series of meetings later this week, and on into November, with both NRW and Dŵr Cymru, and indeed Hafren Dyfrdwy—together and separately—and also with Ofwat, in order to discuss this. But as the current structure of the water industry in the whole of the UK stands, the only way to put the investment in is to increase the bills of customers. So, we discuss that with them all the time. We make sure that there's a good social tariff in place for those who are unable to afford it. But unless you have a change in the Government, and the UK Government's understanding of how you would implement infrastructure improvement in the water industry, then I'm afraid the only way to implement infrastructure improvements by the water companies is from the money that they raise in revenue, which is, of course, the bills that we all pay.
We will be working, however, with NRW and Welsh Water to make sure that their pipeline of what they're going to do first, and what the severity is, and making sure that they address the worst first, is necessary. And I do think it's important to make sure that we are—. I absolutely understand the outrage; I absolutely share it myself, but I think it is important to make sure that we understand the effect of each of the spills and what can be done to overcome it.

Mike Hedges AC: As you probably remember, I regularly raise concerns about sewerage in the River Tawe, where storm water mixes with raw sewage at the Trebanos treatment works and is then discharged into the River Tawe. I have said several times in the Senedd that in order to stop this, Welsh Water needs to be prosecuted and fined. There's no pain for putting raw sewage in it for them. I have read that NRW do not prosecute Welsh Water because of the threat of costs being awarded against them.
Will the Welsh Government underwrite the cost of NRW prosecuting Welsh Water? We cannot continue like this, having raw sewage in rivers where children are playing, where anglers are trying to catch fish. We just can't continue like this. They started putting it right in the twentieth century; why are we going backwards?

Julie James AC: Yes, Mike, I'm more than happy to bring forward—. Well, in fact, I'm due to do an oral statement on this, Diprwy Lywydd, and I'm sure Members will bring it up there, but I'm more than happy to circulate information on NRW's prosecution policies, how they work and where they prosecute.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In this place, when we discuss issues like this, one of the privileges we have is the ability to make law. I note, Minister, that the Office for Environmental Protection in England has actually put on notice the Environment Agency, Ofwat and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for exactly what we're talking about now. And it's on an interesting point that they say:
'As a result of our investigations so far, we think there may have been misinterpretations of some key points of law. The core of the issue is that where we interpret the law to mean that untreated sewage discharges should generally be allowed only in exceptional circumstances, such as during unusually heavy rainfall, it appears that the public authorities may have interpreted the law differently, permitting such discharges to occur more often.'
This is not just a west Wales issue; it's an Ogmore issue, a Swansea issue, a UK issue as well.
WildFish, who I have a connection with as well, as does a colleague across the way there, because of our work on Atlantic salmon and other wild fish there, have also put the UK Government on notice. I wonder, Minister: what is your interpretation of the law on this? Is there wide interpretation of this, wider than it should be, and, if so, how do we make stricter the guidance on when discharges can actually happen?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Huw. There are two issues here at play, in the legals of this, if you like. There are storm overflows with permits, and they have permit conditions, and there's an issue about whether they meet the criteria for the permit condition or not. And that's where the water company are required to investigate and improve the performance of a combined sewage overflow with permits. And the permits—you're quite right—say that they can only discharge at points where they're overwhelmed by the system, and there are specific things about each permit where they're allowed to do that.
So, there are issues where people are breaching the conditions of their permit. And, then, there are issues where there are combined sewage overflows that don't have a permit, because they're either not known or not monitored. And we have a very small number of those; I can provide the information to the Member if he wants to see it.
New CSOs in Wales are not created. We've made sustainable drainage systems mandatory on all new building developments—almost all new building developments, apart from very small ones. The whole point of that is to relieve pressure on the network by redirecting and slowing down the speed at which surface water enters the sewage system. Only yesterday, as part of the Welsh housing quality standard, I was informing the Senedd that we were putting waterbutts onto all the retrofitted social houses. There are 230,000 social houses in Wales, and I'd encourage everybody else to do it as well, by the way. That, of course, prevents all of the water hitting the roofs of the house from going into the sewage system, because it's run-off, with a large number of people who've done things like paved over their garden or their front garden. We all have a part to play in trying to minimise the amount of run-off from our roads systems that goes into our rivers.
And then the other thing to say as well is that I do not in any way take away from the impact of these spills into the rivers, because the impact is absolutely there. On nearly all of our special areas of conservation rivers, the highest polluter is agricultural run-off and not CSOs. And so there are a number of other things we need to do to make sure that our rivers can recover and one of them is addressing the pollution from agricultural run-off.
I have a summit at the end of November, in which we will be once again monitoring the action plan that we've agreed through the better river management groups and through the nutrient management boards. We have a whole system of things in place here in Wales to get ourselves into a better position. The First Minister has been very clear about this. We've asked each sector to stop pointing the finger at other sectors and to look to its own act and to make sure that it's doing everything they can. The water companies are both part of that summit and they will be being held to task there, and I have a series of meetings with them over the next four to six weeks. I don't think it's a misinterpretation. I think it's a creaking infrastructure incapable of dealing with the amount of stuff it's expected to deal with and with no proper strategic infrastructure investment plan to go with it.

Joyce Watson AC: As somebody who's lived in Cardigan or Aberteifi, and who's family still does, I know the area really well, and I know also that it serves more than 7,000 of my constituents, and affects Afon Teifi and the Teifi bay, which are both SAC designated, and the illegal spills weren't one-off instances. And I want to thank Professor Hammond for the investigation that has brought all this to our attention, because without that we wouldn't be talking about it today.
I do recognise, Minister, and you've mentioned, that Dŵr Cymru are about to start a £20 million upgrade at Cardigan in 2025, and that is good news. But anyone who has lived in this area will know that you can smell the sewage if you walk along the river at the time that it is discharging. That is a fact. They will also know that individuals who have entered the water at the wrong time have also been extremely unwell. So I think there's a question here about individuals understanding when those discharges are being made into the river—not the sea at Poppit that you're talking about, which is the bar, but into the actual river—so that they don't get contaminated themselves. I think that's a key question.
You've already started talking about SuDS and surface water run-off. Quite clearly, there might be a greater understanding, I hope, that will have come out of all these discussions on flooding today, to stop the water in the very first instance from getting into the drainage system. When you're reviewing the SuDS, Minister, which you will—sustainable urban drainage systems—we know at the moment that there are caveats in there that have removed the small builders from their obligations. Would you have a look at that? Because in rural areas like the one we're talking about, it will be the case that most additionality that flows into the joint systems—water systems, sewage systems—that we're now talking about will come from those very small buildings that don't necessarily happen on a large scale in any case. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Joyce. I just want to acknowledge your long-term campaign to prevent people paving over their front gardens in particular, and your campaign to bring awareness to people of what happens when they put impermeable covers on their front garden in particular, so that the run-off goes straight into the gullies, into the road, because those are where the biggest problems lie. As I know you're very well aware, I wrote out, at your request, to all local authorities in Wales just reminding them that, in point of fact, you need planning consent to pave over your front garden, and I really hope all Members will inform any constituent asking them, and perhaps put resources on their own websites and their own information pieces to tell people of the real damage that happens when people pave over their front garden and increase that run-off without thinking about it.
I certainly am reviewing the SuDS. We were severely criticised by the Conservatives and by the volume house builders when we brought SuDS in, but, actually, it was absolutely the right thing to do. And I think you're right; I think we should look at the exemption limit and whether we need to decrease that to make sure that people make sure that when they build houses, they deal with the run-off of water. And then, as I also said—and I know you're well aware, Joyce—we also need to tackle the other issues in our rivers, but we absolutely need to make sure that our water companies live up to their promise.
Just for Members' information, and this has clearly not been sufficient, but just for their information, in Dŵr Cymru's manifesto for rivers, they deliver over £840 million worth of improvements by 2025, and a further £1.4 billion by 2030, as part of their current price structure. We are, at the moment, in the current price review, where we are negotiating how much money they can put into investment, and where that money comes from, and this whole issue about bill payers paying. But without a very serious change of policy at UK Government level, there will be little we can do to stop bills increasing if we want the kind of level of infrastructure investment we actually need to prevent this kind of appalling pollution happening in our rivers.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister once again.

4. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and first of all we have Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Perhaps Roy Francis isn't the first name that springs to mind when listing our rugby greats, yet he was Great Britain's first black player, and the first black head coach of a top-tier professional team. He was born in 1919, and initially started playing rugby union for Brynmawr. At 17, he was one of the first black rugby league players, when he switched codes to join Wigan. His playing career was interrupted by the war, where he served helping to rehabilitate wounded soldiers. It was here that he started to learn some of the coaching techniques that would define his legacy. At the end of the war, he rejoined Barrow, and his form saw him soon called up to the Great Britain squad. In 1947, he became Great Britain's first black player, scoring two tries against New Zealand. When he finally retired as a player in 1955, he was able to look back on a remarkable record of 229 tries in 356 games. After his playing career, he coached Hull to the championship title in 1956 and 1958, and Leeds to the Challenge Cup in 1968. After a spell in Australia, he returned to Leeds and won the premiership in 1974.
If his playing career impressed, then his coaching career influenced and shaped the game by using techniques well ahead of his time, with diet and filming games and training sessions being some of his innovations. He retired in 1977, and we lost him in 1989. More than 30 years on from his death, Roy Francis is now recognised with a statue in his home town. In 2018, he was inducted into the Welsh sports hall of fame. This follows the unveiling of a statue of fellow Welsh black rugby league players Billy Boston, Clive Sullivan, along with Gus Risman, in Cardiff, and it is a fitting way to mark Black History Month. Congratulations to everybody in Brynmawr who worked hard to remember Roy. Roy has come home.

Delyth Jewell AC: Next month, the Newport Rising festival will be held to commemorate the anniversary of the Newport Chartist rising. It will remember the thousands of Chartists who marched through Newport on 4 November 1839 in an effort to demand better voting rights and to expand who was able to play a part in politics. At least 22 people lost their lives that day in the struggle for democratic reform, and though the vision they put forward for democracy, for community and greater equality was not achieved directly by the Chartist movement, it arguably laid the ground work for future suffrage. So, in tribute to this significant day in Welsh history, Newport Rising will be holding a festival for its sixth year. It is a non-profit festival delivered by a very small group and volunteers, and it will offer a range of activities, from music and film to talks and workshops. And, of course, the annual torchlit procession will follow the path the Chartists took through Newport.

Delyth Jewell AC: It is a celebration of Wales and our colourful history, of Newport and its communities, and it's an opportunity, perhaps, for all of us to think about some of the rights we are all too prone to take for granted. So, good luck to everyone who's going to be participating in this important event.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Today marks International Dwarfism Awareness Day. This is a wonderful opportunity to celebrate and to raise awareness of the challenges faced on a day-to-day basis. Today, people with dwarfism all over the world still face so many barriers that can stand in the way of opportunities and choices. People with dwarfism have every right to live as independently and confidently as anyone.
The twenty-fifth of October was chosen as a day for dwarfism awareness because it was the birthday of Billy Barty. He set up Little People of America in 1957, an organisation that supports people with dwarfism as well as raising awareness. Little People UK was then co-founded in January 2012 by actor Warwick Davis, his wife Samantha, and a group of individuals with the same goal: to offer friendship and support to people with dwarfism, their families, friends, and help build a positive future.
Newport's very own Danielle Webb, vice-chairperson of Little People UK, is a fantastic and inspirational campaigner. Danielle is working hard to share her experiences with people around her and in the community to make places more adapting. Danielle is also a two-time author of children's books, Mummy There's a New Girl and Short Perspectives, encouraging schoolchildren to promote diversity and disability awareness within children's literature and education. I'm honoured to be sponsoring Wales's first official Dwarfism Awareness Day event at the Senedd this evening, with the help of the wonderful Danielle Webb. I hope this evening in the Senedd we can all listen and learn from little people, to understand what we need to break down barriers that all too often prevent them from achieving their full potential.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The Holodomor

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on the Holodomor, and I call on Alun Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM8381 Alun Davies, Darren Millar, Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that the Holodomor was a predetermined crime committed and led by Stalin and the Soviet Government against the people of Ukraine.
2. Regards the Holodomor as an act of genocide.
3. Notes the crucial role of Welsh journalist Gareth Jones in bringing the cruelty of the Holodomor to the attention of the world.
4. Continues to stand with the people of the Ukraine as they face Putin's illegal war.

Motion moved.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The memory of the Holodomor resonates down the years, as we remember Soviet violence 90 years ago and witness the violence of Russian aggression today. This debate is timely, because it isn't simply a historical exercise.
The Holodomor is a Ukrainian word that means to inflict death by hunger. Today, we use it to mean the entire Stalinist campaign to eliminate the Ukrainian nation, which culminated in the forced famine of 1932 and 1933, which killed millions of Ukrainians. The exact number of people lost, of course, is not known, because the Soviet Union refused to allow the reporting of the famine, but it's estimated that 7 million, and may be as many as 10 million, people died in Ukraine, with many more deaths in the neighbouring Soviet states. And let us be absolutely clear, Deputy Presiding Officer, this was not a natural disaster, nor was it an act of God and nor was it a misfortune. It was a deliberate policy designed to eliminate the Ukrainian rural population, who were the embodiment and spirit of Ukrainian culture and nationhood.
It remains Ukraine's silent massacre—a horrific man-made disaster on an unimaginable scale, brought about by Soviet policies. At the height of the famine, 25,000 people died every day of starvation, including children too small to feed themselves. Some people tried to commit suicide to escape the horror of starving to death. Those who refused to steal or leave died of hunger. Those who tried to steal were shot. Those who tried to leave were returned to their villages to face the same impossible choices again. Villagers turned to cannibalism to survive. The dead were unburied and the sick untended. These are difficult subjects to discuss and difficult things to hear, but it is crucial that we appreciate and understand the scale of the suffering.
The main goal of the artificial famine was to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from vast areas of Ukraine. And let us be in no doubt, Deputy Presiding Officer, this was genocide.
In 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust, the United Nations genocide convention was adopted, and it defined genocide as an act committed with the intent to destroy in whole, or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Whatever the definition adopted, this reaches the threshold for genocide, and we need to say that and we need to say it clearly from this Parliament this afternoon. As with the war today, there was a clear perpetrator behind the famine—Stalin yesterday and Putin today. Stalin's motivation was to transform and to mould the Ukrainian nation in his own image at any cost, and it is mirrored in Putin's warped imperialistic world view today.
Putin's misguided and perverse attempts to wipe Ukrainian identity from the world are the most recent manifestations of Russia's penchant for interference, subjugation, war and atrocity. Russian attacks on Ukrainian nationhood and identity continue to take place today. We continue to see those attacks on the Ukrainian nation. And we should remember that since 2014, thousands have been killed by Putin's forces. Since the full-scale invasion, over 50 per cent of Ukraine's pre-war population—21 million—have needed humanitarian assistance either inside or outside Ukraine. We should remember the scale of the impact of this on people, on communities, on the people of Ukraine, but also recognise how people across the world have reached out to Ukraine in order to support them at this time. Russian forces have attacked Ukrainian hospitals, schools and energy supplies, leaving cities in ruins and people running for their lives. It draws clear parallels with the 1930s in terms of the scale of the impact and the effect it's had on the human population.
This debate carries particular weight this afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer, because much of what we know is because of the bravery of one Welshman, Gareth Jones. Gareth Jones defied Soviet attempts to censor him and reported the truth of what was happening to millions. The Kremlin, of course, continued to deny the existence of the famine, and yet the mendacious campaign that tried to silence Gareth could not. We're grateful to the journalist Martin Shipton for writing about Gareth's bravery and about the role that Gareth played in bringing this news to the world. We're grateful also to those who have remembered Gareth, where a plaque in his memory was unveiled in Kiyv earlier this autumn.
I'm proud that the Welsh Government—. And I thank the Government of Wales for continuing to support the work to remember what is happening in Ukraine. I'm proud of the leadership of Mick Antoniw, who has led the Welsh Government and this Parliament so often over the last few months and years in supporting and standing up for the people of Ukraine. I'm proud also of Members on all sides of this Chamber who have united, put party politics and party differences to one side, to stand up for the people of Ukraine. It is important, because if we do not confront and accept the tragedies of history, we are doomed to repeat them. Throughout its history, Ukraine has been in a fight for its survival against Russia. There is a pattern of behaviour where Russia has tried to simply wipe out Ukraine as a nation.
Deputy Presiding Officer, it tried to do it 90 years ago. It is trying to do the same today. Unless we understand and appreciate the historical context, we do not understand the significance of what is happening today. I know the Welsh Government will continue to show unwavering solidarity with the people of Ukraine in remembering this tragedy, and will continue to stand squarely behind Ukraine in its defence of its sovereignty and its people's rights. When I travel to Ukraine tomorrow, I travel with the goodwill of Members on all sides of this Chamber, and from all communities of this country. The people of Ukraine recognise and are grateful to all of us for that support and for that solidarity. In months and years to come, that will be tested and needed again, and I'm absolutely confident that Members on all sides of this Chamber will not be found wanting. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank Alun Davies for introducing this debate—I was pleased to co-submit—but also for the way he opened the debate today? It is extremely important, as you have outlined, that we do not only remember, but also, one would hope, relearn lessons from the past. But unfortunately, that isn’t happening, and that’s why we’ve seen the situation develop as it has.
Like you, I think it’s important that we do use the appropriate word, ‘genocide’, because that is what this was. And it’s important that Parliaments such as this Parliament reflect on the importance of political choices and decisions, and what that means for individuals. Because we see time and time again that people, unfortunately, don’t learn the lessons of history. We can condemn the past, but we will be judged on what happens in the present.
One of the things that I reflected on in speaking to Sioned Williams earlier on was that we of course recognise the bravery of Gareth Jones, and the fact that he died so young because of his courage, and that he was a single voice, and the challenges that he would have faced in getting the story out at the time, and then we compare that with the present, where you can go on social media and see in seconds, or even see a live stream, of events as they happen. And you’d like to think that if people had known, then things would have been different. It’s something that you can reflect on when you do learn about history in school. What would have happened if people were aware? What would we have done? Well, that’s a question that we should all reflect on now, and I think that the fact that we are having this discussion about something that happened 90 years ago, but linking it to the present, is extremely important. Because the current atrocities have these far deeper roots, and that’s why we have sought to ensure that history is reflected in the curriculum and so on, because you are hoping for a better future. You would hope that such atrocities wouldn’t happen, but they do.
In terms of truth, one of the things that I would hope we could do is to continue to challenge what’s happening in Ukraine now, to make that connection with genocide, but also to ensure that we are a consistent voice for those people who continue to suffer, of course, with so many having made their homes here in Wales, not knowing what’s happened to their loved ones. So, I am pleased that we are taking this time to reflect this afternoon, because we are reflecting on these issues, but I also hope that we are thinking about everyone who continues to suffer because of political choices taken across the globe, and that today we should be certain that we should continue to listen, continue to remember, and to use our international voice to insist on a better future for everyone.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you to Alun Davies, Darren Millar and Heledd Fychan for tabling this important debate on behalf of all of the main political parties represented at the Senedd. I believe that the cross-party nature of this debate demonstrates our unanimous support for the people of Ukraine, and their resilience in the face of Russia’s invasion.
On the fourth Saturday of every November, the Holodomor is remembered internationally, and the Welsh Government has committed to raising awareness of the Holodomor, to remember the victims and to stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Ukraine, who have now sought sanctuary in Wales. Last November, we marked 90 years since the Holodomor unfolded in Ukraine with an event in Alexandra Gardens in Cardiff, led by the Reverend Canon Stewart Lisk. We remembered those who had suffered as a result of the previous actions of a government in Moskva.

Mick Antoniw AC: This year we have organised an event here at the Senedd on 25 November, kindly sponsored by my fellow Member Alun Davies. The event will include participation from the First Minister, Welsh Government Ministers, local government, Ukrainian and Welsh religious leaders, the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain, and a representative of the embassy of Ukraine. The event will be attended by many of our Ukrainian guests, who have taken sanctuary in Wales because of the war. We will listen to the hauntingly beautiful sounds of bandura players, Ukraine's national instrument. We will lay wreaths and sheaves of wheat to remind us of the wheat stolen then by Stalin's cadres and today stolen by Putin's invaders. We will then stand in silence for a period of reflection to remember the millions of victims of Stalin's artificial famine.

Mick Antoniw AC: Putin's current atrocities in Ukraine are part of a long-term pattern of Russian oppression of Ukraine, stretching back many decades and, indeed, centuries. Marking Holodomor in this way shines a light on this. The event will provide opportunity to reaffirm our solidarity with Ukraine and to pay tribute to the bravery of the Ukrainian people. We will also be highlighting Holodomor remembrance through our social media channels and in our regular communications with guests and hosts across Wales to raise awareness.
The Holodomor—a man-made famine that caused millions to die—was bravely exposed to the world, in part, by Welsh journalist Gareth Jones. It was an act of genocide, which the motion recognises.
The Holodomor was an act of genocide. Голодомор був актом геноциду.
This motion, unequivocally on behalf of the people of Wales, through this Parliament, declares Holodomor an act of genocide. Ця ініціатива однозначно від імені народу Уельсу через цей парламент проголошує Голодомор актом геноциду.
The term 'genocide' was created by Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin, who survived the Holocaust, and he was responsible for the introduction and eventual adoption by the United Nations of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide—an international treaty that criminalises genocide and obligates state parties to pursue the enforcement of its prohibition. It was the first legal instrument to codify genocide as a crime, and the first human rights treaty unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948, during the third session of the United Nations General Assembly. The convention entered into force on 12 January 1951, and it has 152 state parties as of 2022.
Lemkin was clear that what we now describe as the Holodomor was an intentional programme of starvation—the third prong of Soviet Russification of Ukraine. In 1953, in a speech given in New York City, Lemkin described the Holodomor as one part of perhaps the
'classic example of Soviet genocide, the longest and most extensiveexperiment in Russification, namely the extermination of the Ukrainian nation'.
Going on to point out that the Ukrainian is not and has never been a Russian.
Welsh journalist Gareth Jones saw the suffering in Ukraine and told the truth about the horror he found. He was one of the few western journalists who reported on the famine in Ukraine and its causes, and is still considered a hero in Ukraine. I was pleased to see Gareth being remembered and honoured in his home town of Barry with the unveiling of a memorial plaque in his honour. This is one of four plaques that have been unveiled in his honour, with others in Aberystwyth, Milan and only several weeks ago, at a ceremony in the national library in Kyiv. We will be commemorating Gareth Jones and the importance of his work at the event at the Senedd next month. And whilst we honour the resilience and courage of the Ukrainian people in the face of Putin's aggression, we also affirm our commitment to help Ukrainians here in Wales to record their knowledge of war crimes committed in more recent times.
Each of us has been shocked by the brutality of what we have seen and heard from Ukraine since the large-scale invasion began. Since February last year, thousands have been killed and millions more forced to seek refuge. Welsh Government condemns this war, and we, as a nation, will continue to stand against brutality and in solidarity with those who need us.
Before this conflict, Wales was home to around 500 Ukrainians. We have now welcomed more than 7,000 people fleeing Ukraine. We know those who arrive here in Wales seeking a safe place to stay need support. Many have settled into our Welsh communities and become our friends, our colleagues, our schoolmates, and in some cases, more like our family. We have welcomed them and learned from their experience to strengthen our communities. This response has again shown the compassion across Wales. The people of Wales have demonstrated that they will step up and answer the call to participate in the nation of sanctuary. And again, I say 'thank you' to the people of Wales for their generosity.
We are all aware of the longstanding connection between Ukraine and Wales, and I am extremely proud of how we continue to stand against these barbaric acts and show unwavering generosity. So, I know that all Members will join me in expressing Welsh solidarity with all Ukrainians on the anniversary of Holodomor. Wales is a nation of sanctuary, a nation of peace. Слава Україні! Героям слава! Перемога!

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I also start by paying tribute to the work of Mick Antoniw—not only for his role here in the Welsh Government and the Welsh Parliament, but for the leading role that he is playing in ensuring that the voice of the people of Ukraine is heard across this nation? Can I also thank as well my colleagues Heledd Fychan and Alun Davies for the ability to co-table this important motion today?
I know that Alun has visited Ukraine on a number of occasions. I've visited it once since the start of the Russian invasion, and I know how much those visits are appreciated by the people of Ukraine. Of course, the establishment of the new cross-party group for friends of Ukraine, I think, will help once again to show the solidarity that there is in this Chamber with those people, who are in the midst of a crisis. We need to support them as much as we can.
So, look, this is a very important debate. For too long, the Holodomor has been overlooked. It has been overlooked in the annals of human suffering and injustice. Therefore, I stand shoulder to shoulder with everybody in this Chamber and with the people of Ukraine in calling for the formal recognition by this Welsh Parliament of the Holodomor as a genocide.
We've heard already that these are events that took place 90 years ago, the scale of which it is impossible to fathom. But to think that up to two or even three times the population of Wales died as a result of a man-made famine, which was an intentional policy of the then Soviet Government, under Stalin, is absolutely awful.
We know that Holodomor does mean 'death by hunger' in Ukrainian, and it was good to hear the Ukrainian tongue used in the Chamber today. But that forced starvation of millions of people cannot go ignored any longer. We know that grain and food were seized from Ukrainian households, leaving them with absolutely nothing to eat. There was forced migration that took place as well. Millions of men, women and children perishing from starvation, and some resorting to the horror of cannibalising their own family members in their desperation to survive.
So, the intention of those policies under Stalin was clear: it was to break the spirit of the people of Ukraine and to suppress any form of resistance, as well as undermining their national identity. It was a systemic and calculated effort to eliminate a huge portion of the Ukrainian population. And that, my dear friends, is genocide—plain and simple, it is genocide.
And the evidence supporting the recognition of the Holodomor as a genocide is overwhelming. Not only do we have Gareth Jones’s account of what was going on—and it’s wonderful that we're paying tribute to him in the Chamber today, and that his legacy in exposing the horror of the Holodomor to the world is not going to be forgotten—but we know from accounts of survivors, international observers, historical records; they all mount up to a chilling picture of the suffering that was being endured by Ukrainians during this period. There are photographs, there are letters, there are official documents, all pointing to the deliberate nature of these atrocities.
And that's why I think it is absolutely essential that we stand together this afternoon in order to make this formal declaration in the Welsh Parliament that the Holodomor was, indeed, a genocide. In doing so, it will serve as a powerful reminder, not only of the human capacity for cruelty and the importance of acknowledging past wrongs, but it will honour the memory of those millions of men, women and children who perished during this very dark chapter of Ukrainian history, giving them the recognition that they deserve.
We know also, of course, that a number of nations and Parliaments have already recognised the Holodomor as a genocide, including the United States, Canada, Australia and many eastern European nations, and, I was pleased to note, earlier this year, even the House of Commons, in spite of the UK Government's position on the matter previously, also declared the Holodomor to be a genocide. And this is why it's very important for us to do the same, because we see Ukraine, at the moment, struggling—struggling to survive against an illegal invasion by Vladimir Putin and Russia, repeating this cycle of oppression of its smaller neighbour, Ukraine. And so I'm proud to stand in this Senedd today encouraging all of you to stand by the statement in this motion, no matter what your political flavour is, no matter whether you're in Government or not in Government, so that we declare this to be what it is—a genocide—and we pay tribute to Gareth Jones and his legacy. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: A&E department performance data

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, A&E department performance data. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM8390 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the importance of meaningful and transparent data in improving care and patient safety.
2. Regrets the findings by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine that headline emergency department performance data have not been accurately reported for more than a decade.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) routinely publish pre-exemption figures for Welsh emergency departments to better understand performance and to inform decision making;
b) explain why the performance data in responses provided by Welsh local health boards to the Royal College of Emergency Medicine under the Freedom of Information Act and emergency department performance data published by the Welsh Government appear to be different; and
c) commission an independent review of published data to ensure that they are comparable between the UK nations.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar. This is a very important debate today, because our accident and emergency departments are the front line, the first point of contact, for many individuals facing emergencies, injuries and life-threatening conditions. Therefore, the accuracy and reliability of the data collected and reported on the length of time that people are waiting in our A&E departments is crucial, not only for the individual patient, because we know that waiting longer times in emergency departments is directly related to worse patient outcomes, but also for the entire healthcare system. Having accurate A&E data is vitally important, because it allows managers and health professionals to plan for periods of winter pressures.
Now, I would have thought that what I've said is fairly obvious, and I would have thought that we could all agree on that. But that doesn't seem to be the case, because the findings of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine demonstrate and tell us that the data published is misleading, as published data is not reflective of the scale of long waits taking place in our A&E departments. So, our motion today points out the failings to capture data in a way that allows healthcare professionals to properly predict pressures.
We won't be supporting the Government's amendment today. The Government's amendment more or less deletes our entire motion. The Government amendment:
'Notes the assurance from health boards that emergency department data have been reported in line with Welsh Government guidance'.
The Minister is nodding. I agree. But the Government is missing the point. The fact is that published emergency department performance data does not reflect the length of time that people are waiting in A&E departments, and that recording patients' data where a breach exemption has been applied in the wait-for-fewer-than-four-hours category misrepresents the true picture when it comes to A&E performance and waiting time. Now, the Welsh Government are also completely missing the point of the royal college's concerns and recommendations, or perhaps they're deliberately doing so. Rather than listening to the points being made—and I would have thought that this would be the right response for the Government, to listen to the concerns and address them—the Government seem to have dug their heels in and claimed that everyone has got this wrong. The royal colleges have got this wrong, the Welsh Conservatives have got this wrong, Plaid Cymru have got this wrong, the BBC, who have independently verified this position, have got it—we're all wrong and we should stop debating and asking questions on this topic.
Point 3 of our motion today is calling for the Welsh Government to
'explain why the performance data in responses provided by Welsh local health boards to the Royal College...and emergency department performance data published by the Welsh Government appears to be different'.
The question has not been addressed by the Government despite me asking the Minister on a number of occasions.
So, what did the FOI requests tell us? They told us that in the first six months of 2023 there were 45,757 patients who were classified as breach exemptions, and, therefore, their true length of stay in A&E departments had not been recorded, included or reflected in the official performance data. Their attendance and waits are recorded in—. So, this is important: their attendance and waits are recorded in the data, but in the fewer than four hours category, when, in reality, they would have been there much longer. Since January 2012, the number of people who have been misrepresented in this way, according to the royal college analysis, which I would agree with, is 673,000 patients.
Now, in order to see the full picture of what we are facing across Wales, the royal college has had to submit FOIs. This is staggering. Doctors submitting FOIs to find out the true position of the position of A&E departments and how long people are waiting, and then doing so in order to plan themselves. So, I hope the Minister will respond in this debate today and explain the performance data in her response provided by Welsh local health boards to the royal college under the FOI and the emergency performance data published by the Welsh Government—explain why these figures are so different.
I want to address Plaid Cymru's amendments today, which I believe add to our motion, and it is correct that four fifths of clinical leads and consultants surveyed by the royal college have a negative view of the breach exemptions policy, and the Welsh Government should, of course, listen to the health professionals. So, Welsh Conservatives will be supporting Plaid's amendment 3 as well. I think that amendment is the amendment that deletes part of our motion; I would have preferred it had you added to our motion, but the points that you make are points that I would agree with, so we'll be supporting those today as well. The Welsh Government should rescind the breach exemptions policy in line with the wishes of the royal college, or at least publish the two figures so we can see the true position.
The Minister has stated that health boards are compliant with the guidance issued in 2011, and this was never in contention, and this is beside the point. The royal college has stated explicitly that the policy is indeed being followed correctly. I agree the policy is being followed correctly—[Interruption.] The problem is, Minister, that the policy itself, of course, is wrong.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Why?

Russell George AC: 'Why?' I hear from another position. 'Why is the policy wrong?' I hear. It was a slight intervention, I think, Presiding Officer, but 'why?' It's wrong because of this: the position has changed. The policy's remained there for 10 years, but the position, Jenny, is very different to the position 10 years ago. Our A&E departments are now at an emergency position. They're in crisis, and this is not the position that was there 10 years ago.
The policy is being applied very differently between health boards. This is the other issue. So, there is human discretion being used. In order to get a true position of how long people are waiting in health boards, it's very difficult to know between hospital and hospital and health board and health board. Also, Jenny, it’s taking up a huge amount of admin time every week when clinical staff or admin staff have to go through and effectively remove the amount of time people are waiting in A&E in order to have those statistics, that data published; time that I think could be better spent. I suppose the big question is: who would not want to have the accurate position of how long people are waiting in A&E? This isn’t good for patients, it’s not what clinicians want, so the only people I would suggest who may not want to have the true position of A&E waiting times if they are poorer is indeed the Government.
So, this is something that has not just come about now; this hasn’t just come back to light in the last week or so; this is something that the royal college have been raising with the Minister in meetings and correspondence for some time, and the Government has failed to adequately address the situation over a period of time. So, sadly, we need to get to a position where current and accurate information is being provided in terms of what is happening in our A&E departments.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Notes the assurance from health boards that emergency department data have been reported in line with Welsh Government guidance.
Notes that the independent Office for Statistics Regulation has welcomed the steps the Welsh Government has taken to provide assurance on the quality of the statistics.
Notes that, based on compliance by health boards with the guidance we have in Wales, Welsh statistics for major emergency departments are considered comparable to the statistics for England’s Type 1 accident and emergency departments.
Further notes that work is ongoing in partnership with service users and clinicians to review the way we measure the quality of care in emergency departments.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points after point 2. and renumber accordingly:
Notes that 82 per cent of clinical leads and consultants surveyed by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine have a negative view of the breach exemptions policy.
Regrets that accident and emergency waiting times have worsened since the policy was introduced over ten years ago.
Believes that the policy compromises the ability of emergency services to plan and manage their resources effectively.

Amendment 3—Heledd Fychan
In point 3, delete sub-point b) and replace with:rescind the breach exemptions policy in line with the wishes of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the amendments and thank Russell George and the Conservatives for the opportunity to contribute to this debate.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: As we approach the winter months, which will inevitably bring additional pressures on our NHS, it’s vital that serious consideration is given to every possible means of supporting front-line services, but the framing of the debate has so far fundamentally missed the bigger picture. The Welsh Government has fixated on the semantics of how A&E data is presented, yet the reality is that the breach exemptions policy itself is simply not fit for purpose. This suggests that the Government have not actually taken the time to fully understand the concerns that are being raised by the RCEM. If they had, as we have done, then they would know that at no point were the RCEM claiming that the Welsh Government were deliberately underreporting emergency department performance data in its entirety. That is why I found the Welsh Government’s response to the story that broke last week, which implied that the RCEM had misrepresented the guidelines on breach exemptions, to be particularly unhelpful, and frankly patronising.
Plaid Cymru has emphasised for some time that the NHS is nothing without its legion of diligent and devoted staff, and part of this ethos is recognising that the people who are best placed to evaluate the relative merits of health policies are those who work in the NHS on a day-to-day basis. And in this respect, the RCEM have been clear that the breach exemption policy as it currently exists is compromising the ability of emergency services to plan and manage their resources. This is reflected by the overwhelming opposition of clinical leads and consultants to the use of breach exemptions, with 82 per cent of those surveyed by the RCEM holding a negative view of the policy.
Jenny asked why; it’s not hard to see why. Breach exemptions have created an unhelpful sense of ambiguity as to the extent of demand on emergency departments. If the clock is stopped when recording the duration of patients’ emergency care for whatever reason listed in the breach exemption guidelines, the policy doesn’t alter the fact that they remain in A&E with the resourcing and capacity implications that this necessitates. Furthermore, the RCEM has confirmed that breach exemptions are applied inconsistently across Welsh health boards due to the inherently subjective nature of the qualifying criteria. This has exacerbated the bureaucratic workloads of staff without materially improving patient outcomes.
In the meantime, A&E waiting times have deteriorated across every metric since the policy was introduced in 2011, even with the exclusion of breach exemption figures from the published data. In August 2011, 8.8 per cent of Welsh patients were waiting more than four hours in A&E; in August 2023, it was 31 per cent. In August 2011, 1.7 per cent of Welsh patients were waiting longer than eight hours in A&E; in August 2023, that figure was 17.4 per cent. In April 2013, 2.7 per cent were waiting longer than 12 hours for emergency care; by August this year, that figure was 10.9 per cent.
When I asked the Minister last week for the Welsh Government's rationale for sticking with a policy that is opposed by so many healthcare professionals and that has not led to any discernable improvement in A&E waiting times in Wales, and which was abandoned some time ago by the other nations of the UK, the Minister stated that it had been introduced at the behest of clinicians in 2011. The Minister also mentioned that the increase in A&E waiting times that has been experienced over the past decade is a natural consequence of Wales's ageing population and the impact of the pandemic. Now, I don't dispute either line of argument in isolation, but to combine both as a justification for continuing with a breach exemption policy is contradictory and disingenuous. You can't on the one hand point to the fact that the pressures facing emergency departments are very different and more challenging now compared to previous years while at the same time insist that the views of healthcare professional from over a decade ago must remain the basis for present-day policy making. Rather than indulging in these kinds of mental gymnastics to save face, the Welsh Government should be listening to what the likes of the RCEM are telling them right now on how to effectively manage the challenges in the here and the now.
I welcome the fact that the Minister has pledged to actively engage with clinicians and service users to drive improvements in the quality of care in emergency departments, including options for more meaningful ways to measure patient experience and outcomes, but it's essential that this doesn't simply lead to more tinkering around the edges, with decisions and more substantive reforms being kicked into the long grass, because all of the evidence is showing us, loud and clear, that we simply don't have any time to lose in addressing the deep-rooted structural issues in our health service. That's why Plaid Cymru is pleased to introduce today's amendment, calling for the breach exemption policy to be scrapped, in line with the express wishes of the RCEM.

Altaf Hussain AS: It gives me no great pleasure to take part in this debate today. As important as it is, we should not have to have the same conversation over and over again. While on the surface this debate is about the importance of meaningful and transparent data, we cannot forget that each of these so-called data points are people—people with hopes and dreams, worries and fears, just like each of us here in this Chamber. We are not talking about abstracts here, we're not discussing statistical curves, we're talking about human beings—human beings who just want to lead healthy and fulfilled lives.
The World Health Organization defines health as a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being, and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity. Their constitution states that informed opinion and active co-operation on the part of the public are of the utmost importance in the improvement of the health of the people. Government have a responsibility for the health of their people, which can be fulfilled only by the provision of adequate health and social measures. By this definition and by any rational definition, we are failing.
Our care pathways are broken, bottlenecks exist throughout the system, which get worse every time there's a bad flu season. Now, with the added complication of COVID in the mix, it is little wonder that we have over 27,000 people waiting for more than two years for treatment. Compare that to the English NHS, which only has 300 people awaiting treatment. It is incredible. Almost 1 per cent of the Welsh population waiting for years in pain and discomfort, compared to 0.001 per cent of the English population.We spend more per head on health, so where are we going wrong? Why did we have 16 ambulances queuing up outside a major hospital in my region? Why was one of those ambulances waiting outside the A&E department for 28 hours? The answer is as simple as it is complex.
At its root is bad planning and mismanagement. The complexity comes from looking at who is making the bad decisions. Sadly it is every tier, from the top to the bottom, from the Welsh Government to local government officials. The First Minister told us yesterday that there had been plenty of ambulances on the roads at the weekend, but the problem with Morriston lay with the flow into the hospital. He is right, of course, but he can't shirk responsibility. It was his Government that failed to plan for adequate social provision. It is his particular dogma that is leading to the closure of private care providers.
The Hollins Care Centre in Cimla is being forced to close despite a good inspection report just weeks ago, without any coherent reasoning from the council and to the dismay of the residents and staff. I was deeply shocked to see the reports of long-term residents in tears as they were loaded onto ambulances. We don't have enough care provision, and yet councils across the nation are waging war on private providers, driven by little more than political hatred of the private sector in care.
We saw the scenes when RCT decided to outsource long-term care provision—the unions were up in arms—but in the real world there is no public sector care provision, and, as a result, the scenes at Morriston A&E are, according to the First Minister, more likely to occur. It is time for the Welsh Government to stop doctoring the figures, admit their failings and get on with fixing our NHS. Diolch yn fawr.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Picking up on what Altaf was saying, if you have ambulances queuing up outside emergency departments as happened last week, you clearly need to ensure that the hospital beds that we have are reserved for the people who need secondary care. That means we need to be really careful about who we are admitting to hospital. If the triage has been done correctly by the ambulance staff, it is likely that those people are the people arriving in ambulances, but not necessarily the case. So, I think what I want to find out in this debate are what are the perverse incentives, if any, to admit people in order to avoid the four and eight-hour wait lists that have to be compiled. I don't buy Russell's argument that it takes a lot of time to compile lists. Of course it takes time to compile lists, but it can be done by a competent administrator to compile the statistics. What you have here is a policy that, I think, was established in 2011, shortly after you and I were elected. The Welsh Government put out a guidance to all clinical directors to explain who needed to be diverted from being on an emergency waiting list were those who were so seriously ill that they could not be moved, those who needed the continued care of emergency department specialists, and those who, despite the best efforts of clinicians, were imminently going to die. [Interruption.] Happy to take it, Altaf.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much, Jenny. Each A&E department should be with an observation ward of 30 to 50 patients. Unless you have that, you will always have this problem in the A&E department—No.1. No. 2, we don't know about the other part of the curve: how many doctors are treating those patients at a given time?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Obviously, there needs to be an observation bay or an observation department. If there is a clinical decision that somebody needs—. The second category of person who should not be moved is somebody who needs a short period of intensive investigation to rule out a serious illness, as opposed to a temporary health crisis that has been resolved by medicine or some other intervention—someone who needs to be observed for a few hours to ensure that there isn't a more serious problem that requires them to be admitted. If somebody has to be sedated in order to perform a painful dislocation or something like that, they may need observation as well. [Interruption.] No, I'm not taking an intervention. I'm going to make some progress.
There are also people who've ingested drugs or alcohol to such an extent that they might be at risk of choking on their own vomit. These sorts of things are important reasons why we need to keep somebody under observation. They might have had a minor head injury. It might be minor, but it might be a concussion, which could be a more serious issue. These are really important clinical decisions that doctors have to make, and therefore they need to be—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: You don't see them.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I beg your pardon, we're talking—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Can you let the Member contribute?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Eight hours without seeing a clinician if you've got a head injury.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We're not talking about that; we're talking about the way in which we are managing our emergency department.
I attended the event organised by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine that took place in the Senedd back in January. Eluned Morgan was there, as were two or three other Members, and I don't remember them harping on about this method of deciding who needed to be under observation as opposed to some of the other issues that I can share with you if you so wish.

Russell George AC: Actually, Jenny, if you speak to them again, they'll send you a copy of the correspondence that they sent to the Minister on this last year, and the Minister responded last year, unhelpfully in their view. So, this is something that they've been raising with the Minister for some time.

Jenny Rathbone AC: They didn't raise it in this important meeting, which I find really interesting, where they talked about the need for one consultant per 4,000, and the fact that, on average, we have over 7,500 patients per consultant, with the best emergency department having just short of 5,000. So, they flagged up to us that we need 100 extra emergency department consultants by 2027. These are really significant issues and really important issues.
What I'm concerned about is that we are having so much discussion about the methodology by which we are defining who is waiting as opposed to being under clinical observation, when we should be discussing some of these other much more important issues, which is to ensure that we do have enough people in the emergency department who are dealing with those who need to be in the emergency department, as opposed to needing support in primary care. These are the challenges—that we shouldn't have so many people turning up in an emergency department who don't actually need secondary care.
We have done a lot of things. The Government has done a lot of things to prevent people coming into the emergency department unnecessarily. Clearly, there was a huge amount of build-up of unmet need during COVID, and we're still struggling with that, but I think we really do need a rational discussion about this, and whether the way in which we calculate those who are under observation for clinical reasons—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, I have given you additional time for interventions. You need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —is getting in the way of the actual statistics that we need, or whether it's an excuse for defensive medicine.

Peter Fox AS: I thank Russell George for opening this really important debate. The importance of meaningful and transparent data in improving patient safety and their care cannot be understated. Without this accountability, we have no idea, do we, of how our NHS is performing, which can lead to patients not receiving the full care they deserve. And as we've heard, from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, due to not having an accurate portrayal we are misleading ourselves, the Government, the people, and that is absolutely wrong. Doctors themselves have warned that this is masking the underlying issues in our NHS, and we are not getting the full picture of the pressures facing our front-line staff and our patients.
In recent times, the health Minister has tried to deflect from Labour's poor record on managing the NHS by comparing our A&E times between England and Wales. However, concerns regarding the validity of the Welsh Government's data and their records calls this into question. Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom, as we've heard, that records the data in this way, and, as we've also heard, clinicians from all health boards have said that the Government should publish figures without the application of breach exemptions, so that we can get that clear picture.
As Altaf has said, we still have 27,000 people in Wales—and let's put that into context, out of 3 million population—waiting for two years for treatment, a much higher rate than in England, where there are only 300 in a population of 56 million. I think it's incredibly important to highlight these figures, considering the financial difficulties the Welsh NHS is going through as a result of the Government's mismanagement.
It is a fact—and I've said it before in this place, only recently—that the fiscal framework enables the Welsh Government to receive 20 per cent more to spend per person on health in Wales than is spent on health in England. But as we know, not all of that funding is being allocated to the health service here, nor has it for years. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Labour had allocated more of the funding by the UK Government to health, our NHS would have had the resilience it desperately needs, and we wouldn't be in this alarming situation with waiting lists as they are in Wales. Rather, our health boards are now facing budget deficits of hundreds of millions of pounds.
These pressures are leading to performance issues across the country. In my own constituency, 50.7 per cent of people have to wait for four hours to be seen in A&E—much higher than the Wales-wide average of 31 per cent. Furthermore, 20.8 per cent of patients were waiting over 12 hours to be seen—an astonishing 10 per cent higher than the Wales-wide average. Sadly, the Grange has also seen poor performances when it comes to stroke care, with just 22.85 per cent of patients being admitted to a stroke unit within four hours, with the median time to admit being 9.5 hours.
I do not hold our health workers responsible for these issues; they go above and beyond every day. They are facing mounting pressures, and are working tirelessly, around the clock, to provide care. It is the Welsh Government who are responsible; this sits on their shoulders. Dirprwy Lywydd, the people of Wales should be able to expect full accountability and transparency to the real situation of the health system here in Wales. They need to know how and when they can expect things to return to how they should be—they deserve that. People need to understand when they can return to that way of being that we all used to take for granted many years ago, and has now been lost, and it seems lost forever, until this Government gets to grips with this situation. I ask Members to support our motion.

Jane Dodds AS: My brief contribution here this afternoon is framed in the feeling of exasperation and frustration. I'm sure we all feel that, and I'm sure the Minister must feel that as well. I kind of finish off with an appeal. Month after month, the people of Wales have heard about the challenges of our ambulance services, the significant waiting times outside A&E, and the horror stories of people who are waiting and are having as good a service as our staff can provide. But the people of Wales can only conclude that our NHS, our precious NHS, is really splitting at the seams. Across the board, the figures continue to go in the wrong direction, and if the Royal College of Emergency Medicine is to be believed, we cannot even trust the official statistics to accurately reflect the full scale of the emergency care crisis.
The dire situation last weekend that compelled authorities to declare an extraordinary incident exemplified the chaos and agony faced by our ambulance staff. Repeatedly voicing alarm about this crisis has become a dreary and repetitive task that feels sometimes like a hopeless cry in the dark. There remains a danger that the current debate here this afternoon actually misses the mark entirely and turns a dire human problem into another petty partisan battle between Labour and the Conservatives, between Wales and England.
The exact statistics ultimately matter far less than our unified resolve to act decisively and together in the face of this emergency. If the true scale of the crisis is even greater than supposed, then our response must rise, in a dignified way, to match that scale, or we will just continue to pursue inadequate policies. Unfortunately, the Welsh Government continues to struggle to mitigate its own crisis. With a tightly constrained national budget and NHS boards under intense financial scrutiny, the Government is limited in its ability to formulate an effective response.
Rural counties like Powys, which has no hospital, rely on cross-border care and are already hamstrung by lack of access. These communities and all our communities need solutions to this crisis, specifically tailored to their needs. We must absolutely significantly boost investment in community-based care and social services to provide at the right time, the right place, with the right sort of care. Patients deserve co-ordinated care in their communities whenever possible, not anxious journeys to distant hospitals when local services are unavailable or, indeed, overwhelmed. Easing pressure on our GPs, reversing the decline in local surgeries and facilitating efficient hospital discharges would greatly help relieve the intense strain on our ambulances and our A&Es and our staff. It is clear that the current model of care for both patients and staff is absolutely unsustainable.
I remain concerned that we are politicising healthcare. I urge my colleagues, whatever political party, to work together in the spirit of cross-party collaboration, not adversarial combat. So, I do hope the Minister will reassure not just us here in the Siambr but the people of Wales that she will commit to cross-party collaboration to address the crisis of access we face and provide the credible reform and support our health service needs. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to thank my party and Darren Millar for tabling today's crucial debate. Long waiting times in accident and emergency departments are directly linked to worse patient outcomes. There are systemic failures in the management of our A&Es, and this is having a detrimental impact on the health of the people of Wales. [Interruption.] Yes, of course I'll take an intervention.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Do you recognise, though, that this is not a problem in the emergency departments? This is a whole-system approach, both for ensuring that primary care stays in primary care and that the whole hospital takes ownership of who should be in the hospital and who needs discharging.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes, absolutely. I take your point, Jenny. Of course we have to look at this in the round; it is a holistic approach that's needed. Of course, beds are being blocked by those who could be released into the communities earlier and sooner than they are, and that is, of course, having that knock-on effect on our A&E departments. But what we're looking at today is the importance of data surrounding that. We need to know the numbers in order to solve the problem.
I must just put on record my thanks to the hard-working NHS staff who are working under sustained pressures. However, they are being failed, Minister, by poor political leadership from this Labour Government. The buck stops with you, Minister.
With a target set to admit, transfer or discharge 95 per cent of patients within four hours, let's drill down into the most recent data available, as it paints an extremely bleak picture. As my colleague Russell George has already outlined, a recent freedom of information request by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has shown that nearly 40 per cent of patients in Wales waited longer than four hours in A&E departments. However, when those breach exclusions were included, as they are by default in other UK nations, the figure became 50 per cent. Minister, you and I both know that this means tens of thousands of people sat in waiting rooms across Wales facing lengthy delays just to be seen, let alone treated. And we know the actual picture is far worse again, with many of my constituents particularly waiting over 12 hours as the norm now.
It is clear this Government have been playing fast and loose with the truth, as waiting times in Labour-run Wales are already exceedingly high across the board, and new figures now suggest that Wales's A&E waiting times are, in fact, the worst in Britain. Minister, it's just another shameful statistic, and you must acknowledge your Government are failing the people of Wales. So, now do the right thing—take ownership of these mistakes, acknowledge the fault, and tell us what your Government is going to do about it. But I won't hold my breath, because this Labour Government will do anything and everything to avoid taking responsibility. Time and time again, we hear excuses and blame game from the Labour Ministers.
If we take the Grange University Hospital in my region of South Wales East, where we have a situation that is dire in terms of A&E waiting times, an appalling number of ambulances waiting hours and hours outside, which is then exacerbated by the building itself not being fit for purpose, having never been even designed for the purpose of an A&E department. This, coupled with the consistently long waiting times, equates to real concern and scenes in the A&E that I don't want to witness again at first-hand. And this Welsh Government's routine failure to address this, alongside Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, is wholly unacceptable.
Wales deserves better than this. My constituents deserve better than this. Accurate data is absolutely essential, as I said earlier, in order for us to be able to address this properly. It's high time we started getting some accuracy, some apologies and some action from this Government. It is time we are honest about A&E waiting times and finally lay out a plan to rectify this. I hope to see the Minister do this in response to the debate, and I urge this Chamber to support our motion today. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking all of those people who work on the front line in our emergency departments. They are under incredible pressure all the year round, but they are under particular pressure at this time of year, and I would like to thank them all for their incredible contribution to our NHS in Wales.
Now, following recent media coverage, I welcome the opportunity once again to clarify and confirm how clinical exceptions are applied in performance monitoring, and to refute absolutely the assertion that we, somehow or other, were gaming the system by excluding certain patients from our emergency department statistics, and, by implication, that the health boards were not following the guidance set by the Welsh Government.

Russell George AC: Will you take an intervention, Minister?

Eluned Morgan AC: No. Media coverage suggested official statistics on emergency department performance for Wales have been under-reported since 2011, when a category called 'clinical exceptions' was introduced. That was incorrect and unverified, and I'd like to refer you to the chief statistician's statement that came out last week—the chief statistician, let me remind you, is independent of political interference—who said that
'Local Health Boards have provided assurance this week that the data they submit...is in line with the guidance on reporting clinical exceptions.
'Welsh Government...do not exclude clinical exceptions from the data'.
Now, some Members this afternoon have tried to shift the emphasis and change the goalposts from that fundamental untruth that was told last week. There has not and there has not ever been a lack of clarity on the part of the Welsh Government.
So, what are clinical exceptions? Clinical exceptions refer to the occasions when emergency department clinicians have deemed that patients require an extended period of observation or treatment. Guidance was released in 2011 to ensure patients are not admitted to wards or assessment units, or released simply to hit targets. Now, before the guidance was developed, different health boards developed their own approaches to exempting patients, resulting in variation and inconsistent reporting. At the time, it was clinicians who asked policy makers to provide guidance to support better patient experience and avoid gaming of performance figures.
So, what does the guidance say? It states clinical exceptions should be included in data reported by health boards, with an agreed process for how waiting times are calculated and considered in performance monitoring. Now, following the release of data gathered by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, as a result of a freedom of information request, we sought immediate assurance from health boards that the data they submit is in line with guidance. It took us a few hours to receive these reassurances, and it was a shame that the media didn't wait for us to check before they ran an unverified story. Health boards have confirmed they are compliant with the guidance issued in 2011, and I'm pleased to note the independent—yes, note the word 'independent' there—Office for Statistics Regulation has welcomed the steps we've taken to provide assurance on the quality of the statistics.
So, why have we got into this situation? [Interruption.] If you stop muttering behind, we might get somewhere—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Russell, I'd be grateful if you'd stop the commentary. The Member is entitled to intervene, and the Minister is entitled to say 'no'. I would be grateful for you ceasing the commentary whilst the Minister speaks, please.

Eluned Morgan AC: So, why did this situation come about? Well, it came about because the freedom of information request by the royal college was flawed. Their request to health boards stated incorrectly that NHS Wales currently only publishes performance figures after patients have been exempted and removed, and that's where the misunderstanding has stemmed from. We understand that health boards provided numbers of attendances over four and 12 hours based on when patients arrived and left the department, but the official method for calculating waiting times is different. It uses specific clock-stop times, in some cases reflecting when a clinician has determined a patient’s treatment has ended rather than when they’ve left the department. Now, I’m going to give you an example. A couple of years ago, I took my 89-year-old auntie to the emergency department as we were concerned about her heart. They did the initial tests, they determined what medicines she needed, and her treatment was effectively finished within a couple of hours. But they wanted to keep her in for observation for a longer period. The treatment was complete, the job was done, but they wanted a belt-and-braces approach, so they stopped the clock. The exemption to the target meant that there was no incentive to admit her unnecessarily, which could have resulted in a long and debilitating hospital stay, and they didn’t need to push her out of the door before they had complete confidence she would be okay without breaching the target.
Now, it appears that the college and the BBC misinterpreted the data on the basis of the college’s initial misunderstanding of our policy. And I note that the college has now changed its stance in an updated press statement, and I’m pleased to say that the Office for Statistics Regulation is investigating this matter more fully.

Eluned Morgan AC: Now, turning to the policy itself, its purpose isn't to ensure improvements to performance against the four-hour target. It states that the main principle behind this change is to ensure that the decisions of a clinician about patient care should have priority over everything else, even if this has an impact, or not, on the four-hour target. So, it's disappointing that some Members appear to believe that this policy is a silver bullet to overcome the challenges facing the emergency care service and its staff.
In terms of the impact on planning for the winter, all I can say again is to provide reassurance to the Member that this policy doesn't exempt any patients from any survey of demand.
Now, to turn to the future, we already knew that the college had concerns about the clinical exemptions, so we already had committed to consider it, bearing in mind the concerns about our ongoing policy work. I was very pleased to speak in the first meeting of leaders of emergency departments a few weeks ago. It's their task now to help us to draw up a quality statement that will be published by the end of March next year, and the aim will be to describe good care in emergency care departments. Where measures, targets and data are gathered and published that don't add value, or that cause unintentional outcomes for patients and staff, we need to consider changes seriously, and I'm entirely committed to doing that.

Eluned Morgan AC: We are up for a conversation about changing the guidance. It is in the hands of those people who are in those conferences to come up with that quality statement in terms of what that guidance should look like in future, and we will have that conversation when they come up with their suggestions.

Eluned Morgan AC: We must remember, if we do change the system to gather statistics in a fundamentally different way to other places, we won't be able to compare our performance with other parts of the United Kingdom. Now, I know that the ability to compare is an important principle to some Members, and my officials are discussing measures and improvements with officials from other parts of the United Kingdom. The fundamental issue here, and what's most important to the people of Wales, is the quality, the effectiveness and the efficiency of patient care, and that's what Jane Dodds spoke about earlier.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, you need to conclude now.

Eluned Morgan AC: The dedication and skill and hard work of clinical and non-clinical staff who work 24 hours a day, every day in emergency care departments should be praised, and they're starting a very challenging winter period. They deserve all the support that we can give them, and a debate about the statistics, which draws attention away from their work, doesn't help them or patients. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've listened very carefully to this debate and I have to say, I'm surprised by the Minister's response. You have repeatedly compared the emergency department performance between Wales and England, consistently saying that Wales is performing better than other parts of the UK. What we know from the freedom of information requests from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine is that there are many people who spend a lot longer than four hours in our emergency departments who are not included in the four-hour waiting-time figures. And I want to quote—. You said it's actually a time target for treatment; that's what you suggested in your response to us just now—it's a time target for treatment, not the length of time you spend in an emergency department. I want to read what StatsWales says that it is reporting, and I quote:
'Attendances where patients spend less than the target time in an emergency department.'
It doesn't say the time to treatment, it says:
'Attendances where patients spend less than the target time in an emergency department.'
Let me give you one example from my own health board, the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. According to StatsWales, the attendances where patients spent less than the target time of four hours in an emergency department in May of this year was 6,819 patients. But according to the FOI request, which was returned, which included the breach exemptions in the four-hour time, the actual figure was 9,844 patients spending longer than four hours in an emergency department. And I've read the question that they asked and the response and, frankly, it still doesn't explain why those individuals are not included. Now, I accept fully the points that Jenny Rathbone and others have made about the fact that, sometimes, you've got to spend longer in an emergency department to decide whether you need to be admitted or not, to be monitored. I get that; I understand that. That's why hospitals have clinical assessment units, where they usually go after they've been in the emergency department, in order to wait to have a clinical assessment before deciding whether they're going to admit them into a hospital; that's what those assessment units are for. So, they shouldn't still be sat in an emergency department waiting for 12 hours or more in order to get test results and in order to be monitored.
So, you say you want—. I want to be able to compare across the UK because I want to know how well we're performing versus other parts of—. Because if they're doing something better, I want to learn from it—whether that's in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. But what we do know is that none of those other nations exclude people in the same way that we do, right? So, if we're excluding people in this way and those other nations aren't—. And I can hear you saying, 'They do'. Do you want to intervene and explain to us? Because the reality—[Interruption.] I'm happy for you to explain, because we're waiting for this explanation, that's what this whole debate is about. Why don't you tell us?

Paul Davies AC: We're still waiting.

Darren Millar AC: Does it happen elsewhere in other nations? 'No, it doesn't', is the answer, and the Royal College of Emergency Medicine are fully aware of that, and that's why you criticising very intelligent people who are doctors doesn't look good, frankly, and yet, that's what you've been doing for the past couple of weeks since this information emerged in the public domain. This is not, Jane Dodds, about petty politics. This is about—[Interruption.] No, it is not. This is about wanting to find out what the scale of the problem is. Because, unless you know the scale of the problem, you cannot then come up with the solutions to be able to deal with the problem and turn that situation around, so that all people in Wales can have access to the timely care that they need in an accident or an emergency situation when they turn up at an emergency department in Wales. That's what they are for. [Interruption.] I'll happily take an intervention.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much for doing that. I hope that this is the start of you working together across the political parties. I know that you moan and you kind of go—[Interruption.] This is so important to all of us and to the—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I think it is better to let the Member give the intervention rather than commentary from all Members on the opposition benches.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think that it's so important that we all work together, and I take your point, Darren. I take the point that you are looking to get the figures. But can I just appeal to you that you are willing to work with the Labour Minister in order to make sure that we get a better health service, rather than keep blaming each other? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Darren Millar AC: We've had examples this afternoon of us all working together to declare the Holodomor a genocide, for example. So, I don't think that it's fair to suggest that we don't work together on a cross-party basis where it's sensible to do so. And of course we're happy to work with the Welsh Government to try and improve the health service. We've been making suggestions on a daily and weekly basis in this Chamber for many years. But the point remains that, unless you have an understanding of the scale of the challenge, you're never going to get it right in terms of dealing with that challenge.
We have a situation at the moment where the figures that are published in terms of those four-hour waiting times in our emergency departments are misleading and inaccurate. That is not good enough. It’s not good enough to be understating the number of people in Betsi Cadwaladr in May by 44 per cent. Therefore, it is not fair of the Minister to constantly make these comparisons with England—and with Scotland and other places—which she has been doing, saying, ‘We are doing far better than you guys are over the border.' She’s said it repeatedly over the past two years, since she has been appointed, and yet she knows that we know, and that the Royal College of Emergency Medicine knows, that that is not the case. So, that is why we are calling upon you to scrap this policy altogether, make sure that the figures are transparent, make sure that everybody understands what is reported, and then, of course, we’ll work together with you, Minister, with colleagues in Plaid, and even with the only Liberal Democrat in the village, in order that we can solve this problem once and for all for the benefit of patients across Wales. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Transport for Wales

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on Transport for Wales. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM8389 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that it is five years since Transport for Wales took over the all-Wales rail franchise from Arriva Trains Wales.
2. Regrets that:
a) train service provision across Wales remains unacceptably unreliable and expensive, with only 57 per cent of services arriving on time between April and June 2023;
b) only 29 per cent of journeys are currently being undertaken on new trains, well below the 95 per cent target set by the Welsh Government for 2023; and
c) Transport for Wales has the lowest customer satisfaction ratings of all major UK rail operators.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure Transport for Wales delivers on the commitments made, and secure improvements in terms of punctuality and the upgrading of the stock, as well as planning for adequate services to coincide with major events in Wales.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Where are we headed with transport in Wales? In what direction are we travelling? We've called this debate because there remain so many questions about timetables running over, missed connections and progress cut short. So much of our transport policy is jammed, and there's a feeling that we could be heading off course.
So, let’s look at the facts: £125 million has been announced for Transport for Wales, and I welcome investment in our public transport. I would ask for more information about where that money has come from, to determine whether any money has been taken from bus services to pay for rail, because, at a time when 80 per cent of public transport users in Wales travel by bus, that service is also in dire need of support.
But, to return to trains, Transport for Wales was launched with a laudable vision of developing a sustainable and accessible public transport system. Anyone who remembers the dark days of Arriva will recall just how welcome that change was. Customers were promised that they would begin to see improved services from the outset. And yet, five years later, TfW consistently gains the lowest approval ratings of rail services in the UK, and stations in Wales have the highest service cancellation rates.
Now, we in Plaid Cymru have consistently advocated for our railways to be brought into public hands, so that the needs of passengers are put before profit. That is why we need to fix these problems that are so stubbornly there. Too often the new organisation has been seen as Arriva Trains Wales with a new lick of paint on the old trains.
Now, to any Members from the Conservative side of the Chamber who might say that this means that public ownership is not beneficial, I’d remind them of how many times their own Government in England has had to take train lines back into public ownership because of the failure of private firms to deliver for passengers. Privatisation of the railways has failed. That is beyond question. And that's exactly why we need to fix things. I want these trains to do well; I'm rooting for them. I get the train to the Senedd every week and I see myself too many of these issues arising too often. Customer satisfaction levels are low. There are often complaints about delayed trains, inadequate seating, unreliable schedules and a general lack of comfort on the services.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Delyth Jewell AC: Now, I realise and I concede that a lot of the disruption to services at present is down to, in the south-east at least, preparing tracks for the metro and bringing in new fleets. I recognise that this will inevitably have an effect and perhaps more needs to be done to communicate that to passengers. But we cannot get away from the fact that disrupted services have real-life consequences. People can lose their jobs if they're not in work on time, or if they can't get to work because their line isn't running. If more passengers in Wales are to be encouraged to travel more sustainably—and we have to do that—more needs to be done to tackle the reliability of the services that we receive.
Now, I would say at this point, Llywydd, that this is not meant as a criticism of dedicated TfW staff, be they guards on the trains, drivers, engineers or people in back offices. I know how passionate these workers are about what they do, and the patience that is shown by their social media team when responding to messages on Twitter that can be blunt and downright rude at times, that's commendable. I know that all of them must find this terribly frustrating as well. Now, new trains that were promised have not materialised. There was a pledge that new trains would make up 95 per cent of train stocks by 2023; I'm afraid that target has been roundly missed. Only 29 per cent of services are being operated with new trains. And when the Minister responds to this, I'd welcome finding out how long passengers will have to wait for adequate trains.
I come into work from Abercynon station, but, sometimes, if the line isn't running, I catch trains from Ystrad Mynach instead. Now, Ystrad Mynach is on the Rhymney line and they have beautiful, immaculate trains, with plenty of space. They're well lit, they're modern; it is a complete contrast to the creaking, crowded, often leaky trains that we get on the Merthyr and Aberdare lines. It's a real tale of two train lines. And yes, that does give me hope that, when the new services roll out, they will be welcomed. I do welcome the new fleet on the Rhymney line. But, for now, too many passengers are being subjected to loud, slow and frankly, unsightly and uncomfortable trains. And that's if they even turn up on time or at all. People are subjected to delays and overcrowding, a lack of facilities, and sometimes safety risks with crowding.
Now, the blame for all these problems cannot be laid squarely at the door of TfW or the Welsh Government. Westminster also has a blame here, because Westminster sets out our direction of travel. Too many decisions that determine the amount of money we have to invest in trains and transport more generally in Wales are made in another country. And for too long, Westminster has ignored the needs and aspirations of the Welsh people. We have seen successive Governments invest billions of pounds in London and the south-east of England while leaving our nation to suffer with crumbling infrastructure and underfunded public services. The proposed high-speed rail project HS2 is just one example of how Westminster prioritises England at the expense of Wales.
I fear that the outlook of how Wales will fare from this under a Labour-led UK Government is somewhat cloudy. While the First Minister here has supported calls for HS2 to be reclassified as 'England only', Keir Starmer has said that he is not going to make a commitment like that this side of the election. Now, this lack of commitment for our nation is robbing Wales of billions of pounds' worth of funding, regardless of which party is in power. Sorting out our struggling transport system should be a priority. I would call on Labour Members here to challenge Keir Starmer on this, to work behind the scenes to change their minds. But we will never face the right direction until these decisions are made in Wales. I agree with Professor Mark Barry that the decision made by Labour in Wales not to push for the devolution of all powers over rail is perhaps the greatest mistake since devolution began, because for as long as another country sets the limits on our transport policy Wales will be at a standstill.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Delyth, will you give way?

Delyth Jewell AC: Yes. I'll happily give way.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: This is a point that came up in a broadcast that I was doing with our new colleagues the other night. For you, the issue is, and I understand, the devolution of it. For me, the issue is, 'Devolve us the money to go with it.' Wouldn't you agree that the fundamental thing for a Labour Government or any Government up the other end of the M4 has got to be, 'Give us the quantum of money, and then we can get on with it'? Now, devolution might be part of that—. Sorry, I'm going on. Devolution might be part of that, but, actually, it's the money we want.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd say that we need both. Certainly, there's nothing I would disagree with in terms of that we need the money. I believe firmly that we need those powers in Wales, because we shouldn't be at the hap and circumstance of whatever Government happens to be in power in Westminster that could, as we've seen all too often, try to claw back powers or to change funding arrangements. I agree with you totally, we need that money, but we need the powers in a more sustainable way. So, thank you for that intervention, Huw.
I would repeat that we will stay at a standstill metaphorically, and all too often literally as well, until all of that is sorted. It's not too late for us to act and demand, yes, that money, demand these powers to take those steps in a new direction.

Delyth Jewell AC: And I hope that our debate this evening will help to set a new route forward. I look forward to hearing what others have to say in this debate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to move formally amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 2 and 3 and replace with:
Acknowledges the impact on passengers of recent poor rail performance, with challenges including ageing and unreliable trains, industrial action in UK Government controlled companies, and the ongoing financial pressures caused by COVID and inflation.
Welcomes the stabilisation of train performance delivered by Transport for Wales since August.
Welcomes the £1.1 billion investment in the core Valley lines and the £900 million investment in rolling stock across the Wales and borders network.
Looks forward to the step change for passengers as new rolling stock is introduced for 95 per cent of journeys by 2024, in line with the Programme for Government commitment.

Amendment 1moved.

Lee Waters AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you very much. Natasha Asghar now to move amendment 2. Natasha Asghar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to publish the business case from Transport for Wales to justify the £125 million of additional funding being provided to the company in the current financial year.

Amendment 2 moved.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Firstly, I'd like to begin by reiterating what Delyth Jewell said, which is giving full credit to all of the front-line staff who work at TfW. They do an incredible job, and perhaps don't get credit for what they do. I would like to also bring my point to the table now, which is that Transport for Wales has been letting commuters down in all four corners of the country for far too long, and, despite Labour Ministers throwing nearly £1 billion at TfW, we have yet to see any real improvements. Trains rarely turn up on time, if at all, and, when they do, they're usually packed to the rafters with passengers forced to stand in any available space, especially when big events are taking place. I'm sure you've all seen on social media the images that I'm referring to—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Will you take an intervention?

Natasha Asghar AS: Of course.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: You just said that:
'Trains rarely turn up on time, if at all.'
Is that really true?

Natasha Asghar AS: If you want to come into my constituency, if you speak to some of the residents—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Rarely, if at all.

Natasha Asghar AS: —who have to use the Treherbert line, which has been in works for a very, very long line, they will—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Rarely, if at all.

Natasha Asghar AS: —be able to reassure you that has been the case. That has been the case, and a lot of money has been spent on bus replacement services because they just aren't showing up on time for them to be able to come and, as Delyth Jewell mentioned, to get to work to earn an honest living.
Now, as I mentioned, reliability of train services is a big issue here in Wales, with the latest data showing just 68 per cent of trains arrive within three minutes of their planned arrival time on Wales and border services. Delays and cancellations are becoming more frequent, with the number of trains delayed between one to five minutes jumping from 9.8 per cent in 2018-19 to 14.7 per cent in 2022-23. Because of this shocking service, Transport for Wales has paid out nearly £1 million in compensation in 2022 alone.
It's not just service reliability where Transport for Wales is failing. Accessibility is a huge problem, with just 18 out of Wales's 223 train stations deemed to be fully navigable, meaning they have ramps, lift access, accessible ticket machines and wheelchair access toilets. Concerningly, seven train stations in Wales have no disabled access whatsoever. Now, that's something that really does have to change.
Taking all that into account, and, believe me, there are more examples, is it any wonder why Transport for Wales has the lowest customer satisfaction rating out of all of the rail operators in the United Kingdom? We were told that, by 2023, some 95 per cent of services in Wales would be on new trains, with an £800 million investment helping to achieve this milestone, yet we found out recently, as things stand, the total stands at 29 per cent, which is nowhere near the target. This is just another empty promise from the Labour Government-owned Transport for Wales. To put it bluntly, Transport for Wales is a failing organisation, as things stand, with passengers ultimately paying the price.
But, fear not, because Labour Ministers have done what they do best—throw money aimlessly at the problem and hope it sorts itself out; £125 million has been pumped into Transport for Wales at a time when budgets across the board are being slashed. As I said earlier in my spokespersons' questions, this whole situation is giving me a really bad case of déjà vu. Is TfW becoming the new Cardiff Airport, swallowing up taxpayers' cash whilst continuing to fail to perform successfully? In June this year, the Welsh Government cut TfW's funding and now, only months later, they're providing it with another £125 million. This smacks of something gone horribly wrong at TfW, and Labour Ministers are stepping in to save the day with their cheque book in hand. We really do need to see a business case to justify the extra funding, and it should be made public so that people across the country can see where their money is being spent.
It appears as though trains are being given some sort of special treatment, with buses being neglected as usual, despite the fact that three quarters of public transport journeys take place on buses rather than trains. Between 20 and 25 per cent of bus services could be cut next year, which is genuinely causing concern within our communities and this is across the board, so it’s really disappointing to see no financial support being pumped into this vital industry. At the moment, Transport for Wales is seriously falling short of the mark when it comes to providing a quality service, but it doesn’t have to be that way. We need to see the Welsh Government reassess their priorities and get a grip on Transport for Wales’s escalating problems once and for all. Thank you.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Just waiting for it to be unmuted there.
I think in the interests of transparency, I should say I’ve shared a journey from Abercynon to Cardiff with Delyth Jewell, and a very pleasant journey it was too, where it was clear that we agreed on more than we disagreed, which was really important to recognise, and I’d certainly agree with what she says about the Rhymney line.
I’ve been campaigning on this for the last seven years to improve the transport on the Rhymney to Penarth line, and it has seen the introduction of brand-new class 231 trains built by Stadler, to their fast, light, intercity and regional train design. They were introduced in early 2023 and I think the Deputy Minister was there at the unveiling. The 11 trains have been built in Switzerland. Similar trains have been introduced successfully by Greater Anglia and other operators throughout Europe, so these really are world-class trains. The services will actually be transferred out of the Rhymney valley line when the very similar class 756s are available and are brought onto the Rhymney valley line, so what you’re going to see is the huge progress, huge visible progress that we’ve had on the Rhymney line being extended across Wales, as soon as those 756s come online. So, I think if we were having this debate in a year’s time, I think it would have a whole different flavour and we would be seeing a whole lot more progress.
One thing I would take issue with with what Delyth Jewell said: I don’t think either the previous Minister, Ken Skates, or the current Minister ever said that the progress would be immediate following the transfer of Arriva to TfW. I think it takes time to build the trains themselves, many of which are being built in Wales, and that means that it is going to take time to have the transfer.
What we’ve also seen is the work that is being done on the transformation of the Rhymney line and it’s happened on other lines, so they’re currently carrying out piling works across the Rhymney line to prepare for the installation of the overhead line equipment and vegetation management work. All of this is causing inevitable disruption on the line and that’s why I say to Natasha Asghar that you see bus replacement services: it's because the lines are being prepared for the future, for a future world-class train service. That’s why you see some disruption at this moment in time. That disruption is inevitable in order to see an improved service, and as time goes by, that service will definitely emulate the excellent service that we see between Rhymney and Cardiff currently, and I think that same thing will happen in Abercynon when the tram trains are available for that line too. So, we will see progress.
I take the point about bus connecting services. I think this is where the Deputy Minister has indicated that franchising will enable the connection of bus services to rail lines. That is a vital step forward, and I would also like to see single ticketing services, so you could buy a single ticket for bus and rail, connecting the rail lines to those bus services. I think, for too long, we’ve seen bus services running in parallel to Cardiff with rail services in my constituency. That is in many ways unnecessary where there is sufficient space and, therefore, by connecting across east and west, I think we can make some progress. So, perhaps the Deputy Minister might want to talk about the planned franchising Bill that would enable that.
And I think just to say one other thing: I held in the summer a workshop with Transport for Wales where members of the public turned up to talk about the issues they’re having with noise as a result of the line. I’ve got to say that Transport for Wales engaged brilliantly with people and explained the extent of this. Even though the work is going on into next year, the noisiest bit was being done right now and is largely coming to an end in many parts of the constituency.
So, we are seeing progress. I really would imagine that people in Transport for Wales will be dismayed by the Conservatives saying that they’re a failing organisation; they manifestly are not. They are making progress, and as I said at the beginning, this time next year, I think if we have this debate again, we’ll see a very different rail service across Wales that emulates that which is in my constituency.

Heledd Fychan AS: I very much hope that Hefin David is going to be correct in his analysis, because the purpose of this debate is that we want to ensure that these services are available. We've heard many politicians under-promising—. Many, rather, have said that politicians should under-promise and over-deliver, but what we've seen too often with railways is the opposite, with many over-promising and under-delivering, as we've seen with HS2. And there is no denying the fact—and I'm pleased that Delyth Jewell started the debate with this—that the significant investment that's occurring in the region that I represent currently in South Wales Central is very much needed and has been too long in coming. So, I very much welcome the work that is being done, as do many of my constituents, of course.
But, there's no denying either that this has had a huge impact on the residents, because, as many will know, since April, no trains have run to Treherbert, and this has had a major impact on residents in the Rhondda. Delyth Jewell talked about some of those who have lost their jobs because they were regularly late to work. That's a reality and that is reflected in casework. Others have had to give up their jobs as they just can't get to the services that they very much need to be able to access work, and they do not have any alternative modes of transport. We know about the very small numbers of people who have cars in some areas and they can't afford a car. Others are late to school or don't get to school at all. The Minister for education yesterday talked about attendance. Well, when there is no alternative transport available, that's very challenging. And people are late to appointments. I note that the Minister for health has mentioned recently the number of people missing medical appointments. How many of those cases are because services are not available or not running? And I think that we have to look at what the impact of this is on so many other services, and if we're looking at a waste of money, well, certainly, when people can't reach a hospital or medical appointment and so on, this is a major problem.
Businesses have also suffered a great deal, with fewer people visiting businesses in places such as Ton Pentre and Treorchy, because of traffic issues while other works are undertaken at the same time and there's an increase in journeys by car. And I think that we have to be honest that the bus replacement services have not been a sweeping success. Because of the traffic problems, they take far longer or they don't turn up at all. And one is also concerned as to why there has been a decrease in these bus services, well, it's because that people aren't using them. It shows that there's a problem somewhere.
People are very much looking forward to the completion of the work, but concerns are already being expressed. They were promised faster journeys, more capacity for travellers, more frequent and more reliable services, and better connections. But, at present, I understand that older trains will be used when the lines reopens—hopefully in February. There is currently ambiguity as to whether there is an intention to extend the timetable once the work has been completed. So, the major concern at present is that the service will be no better after all of this work and upheaval, and that the Rhondda will not, therefore, see the benefit of this investment as it should. I wonder whether the Deputy Minister could provide an update and some reassurance in his response today.
Also, others have mentioned the cuts to bus services in terms of connections with stations, because after all, trains are but one element of the metro. Buses and active travel are vital components too. I wonder whether we could also have an update on this specific element, because that's going to be vitally important.
There is a lack of integration and collaboration on this very complex project. I know that the local authority has felt very frustrated. They've seen decisions being made on an ad-hoc basis and a frequent lack of communication. So, what I would also like to ask is: what lessons have been learned, because communication is vital? I don't know whether anybody else has tried to understand whether a bus is running or not and has looked at the Transport for Wales website during this work, but I can't figure it out at all to see whether a train is running or not. So, it's easier for you to go by car if you have that option. But where you might not have that option, I think there is a great deal of work to do to communicate better.
So, I hope that the Government will learn from this project, and some of the deficiencies and failings, in order to plan better for the future. We need to work hard to restore the numbers of people travelling by train. So, may I also ask the Minister, in responding, what plans the Welsh Government has to ensure that more people use the trains after this line reopens? It's vitally important that we do see this ongoing investment, but it's also important that it's affordable and that those services are there not just to connect the Valleys to Cardiff, but also Cardiff and Wales to the Valleys.

Tom Giffard AS: The statistics on Transport for Wales's performance are very clear for all to see. Twenty-two per cent of people in Wales believe their train services are bad—the highest level in Britain. Transport for Wales has failed to even halfway reach its target of 95 per cent of services being operated by new trains, and there were so many delays in 2022 alone, that almost £1 million in compensation had to be paid out. And all that is in the context of almost £1 billion in funding, with an increase in last week's budget, to fund it. It's an awful lot of taxpayers' money for such a shoddy service.
In my own region of South Wales West, the Welsh Government's overall handling of rail has been pitiful: constant delays to the south Wales metro system, and the much promised but never delivered ongoing farce that is the Brackla railway station. Fundamentally, the Welsh Government have failed to encourage the public at large to actually use trains in the first place. Rail travel is less prevalent in Wales than across the UK. Rail station usage in Wales accounted for just 1.6 per cent of the UK total in 2021-22.
So, it's no surprise that the overwhelming volume of journeys in Wales are still conducted by car, and with this Government's performance in terms of rail, who can blame them? So, it's in that context that it seems extremely self-defeating for Labour and Plaid to continue their war on motorists. With all the efforts being made to force people out of their cars through a ban on new roads, road-charging schemes and default 20 mph speed limits, maybe the Welsh Government should have actually thought about improving public transport for those people to use instead. It's all very well and good for the Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister to push modal shift, getting more people onto trains and buses, but when services are so poor, can you really blame people for not going along with his madcap schemes? Would you like an intervention?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Yes, I would, indeed. Thank you—you anticipated me asking you to intervene. Would you then support—? I disagree entirely with what you said about the war on motorists—that's a load of populist baloney—but would you agree then that what we should be doing with the finite pot of money is making sure that we do, over time, shift the investment into other modes of transport to make those easy choices, on bus, on train and so on, that we should shift the investment? Or are you just wishing away on a magic money tree?

Tom Giffard AS: Well, first of all, I wouldn't call 0.5 million people signing a petition 'populist nonsense'. Voters in Ogmore—. I was in Pencoed earlier this week speaking to voters, and they are up in arms, quite frankly, about the Welsh Government's default 20 mph speed limit. I do think that we need more investment in public transport—that's very clear—but we can't do one thing without the other. It's very easy to discourage people from using their cars. The difficult bit is getting public transport right, and the Welsh Government has completely failed to do that.
But ultimately, look, people are making a rational choice. They want to be able to choose their method of transport, one that suits them best, without the state hectoring them or telling them they're doing something wrong by not using the Welsh Government's shambolic public transport scheme. The people of Wales have made up their own mind about Labour's war on motorists. It's not that they don't want to get the train; it's that their transport policy has completely derailed. It's not that they don't know that they've banned roads; it's that this Labour Government have run out of road. And it's not that people don't want to cycle to work; the public have just decided that this Deputy Minister should be getting on his bike.
And it's important to remember that as extreme as Labour have become on this, Plaid Cymru have been behind them every single step of the way. Whatever they may spin to their rural voters on 20 mph or anything else, when they arrive here in Cardiff Bay, their attitude all of a sudden becomes very different. When it actually comes to votes and debates in the Senedd—[Interruption.] I'll let you come in in a moment. When it comes to votes and debates in the Senedd that affect Government policy, whatever mood music they might play to their constituents, Plaid always seem to fall behind Labour's latest schemes. But, just so that they can claimto their voters they're offering something different, they try and come up with an alternative. Just two weeks ago they unbelievably submitted a motion to this Senedd calling for the electrification of all railway lines in Wales. When I intervened in that debate to ask the leader of Plaid Cymru whether he had costed that policy, he hadn't. Our politics deserves better than Plaid’s brand of nationalist populism. So, Heledd, you're more than welcome to come in and illuminate us by telling us how much the electrification for all railway lines in Wales might cost.

Heledd Fychan AS: I will decide what my intervention is, thank you very much. In terms of what you were saying, I don't quite understand how we've gone from railway to 20 mph, because this is a debate focused on public transport. I would like to know, though, how you think a Government should be reacting to the climate emergency if not to invest in public transport. You're saying 'car is king' and all of that—this is a debate about public transport and seeing that investment. Surely there is a role for Government in supporting people to make that choice from car to public transport.

Tom Giffard AS: I think the important thing is that we don't discourage people from using their cars without encouraging people—[Interruption.] We shouldn't be discouraging people to use their cars without investing in the public transport to back that up. It is impossible to do it otherwise. Time and time again, we hear Plaid Cymru come in with their—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: You're opposing your own argument.

Tom Giffard AS: I'd welcome the leader of Plaid Cymru—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Allow Tom Giffard to carry on with his contribution, unless you're making an attempt to intervene.

Tom Giffard AS: The leader of Plaid Cymru makes claims from a sedentary position, but his claim in that debate two weeks ago to electrify all railway lines in Wales had not been costed. He brought it to the floor of this Senedd completely uncosted.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Tom Giffard AS: I won't take an intervention, because I'm six and a half minutes into the debate, and I'm sure the Llywydd won't allow it.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Carry on, Tom.

Tom Giffard AS: But if they would like some costings, could I suggest they don't spend £33 million on default 20 mph enforcement or £140 million on more politicians—two policies that have got Plaid's stamp of approval? But whether it's a red rosette or a green one, all of this game playing is just a fig leaf to try and pretend that there's some meaningful difference between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party, because at the end of the day, we all know, and now the people of Wales know, that when you vote Plaid, you get Labour.

Cefin Campbell AS: My region, as you will know, is a very large region, it encompasses many rural communities, and we have, unfortunately, become very familiar with the major deficiencies in our public transport in these kinds of communities. So few of our towns and villages are connected by railways, and we are therefore reliant instead on buses.
I've spoken already today on the issue of Bwcabus, which is an exceptionally important and vital service indeed for people in some parts of Wales. And while rail services will receive an additional £125 million from this year's budget, I note that not a single penny more will be allocated to bus provision. So, how on earth, Minister, are those people who can't access train services able to connect with each other and connect between communities?
Now, 60 years ago, the Beeching report led to the closure of many of our railways in Wales. And even since then, very little has happened. The service continues to be inadequate, particularly in our rural areas. A perfect example of that, of course, is the lack of a rail link between, for example, Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. Despite the enthusiastic campaigns by many people, the situation is entirely ridiculous. Only 45 miles separates the two towns, and yet, if you want to travel by train from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, you have to go through Hereford and Shrewsbury to access Aberystwyth, a journey of around six hours. It is totally unreasonable.
Over the summer, I noted in this Siambr the deficiencies with regard to the Heart of Wales line, where trains are cancelled, trains run late, people are left stranded in Llanwrtyd to wait for around two and a halfhours, and no bus replacement buses available to them to take them home.
I accept that the Minister has admitted several times in this Chamber that there are deficiencies, but we've heard that so many times. We've lost hope that any improvements will be made. We've heard already from Delyth here that it's only by having the full powers, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, over our railways that we can develop the service here. This is the only way that we can ensure that the funding—and I agree entirely with Huw Irranca—comes with that responsibility, and that's worth around £514 million between 2011 and 2020, according to a recent study by the Wales Governance Centre. And it would mean then that we could plan our own routes for the benefits of our own communities, rather than serving the benefits and interests of London—and that's the way the train tracks run at present.
In our modern world, geography should not be a barrier to travel, and Plaid Cymru has a clear vision for the creation of a pan-Wales public transport network, connecting north and south, east and west. This would include a new line along the Western coast to connect Carmarthen and Bangor, and, as a result, it would lead to a significant economic and social boost for our rural areas.
Deputy Minister, we don't have to settle for fragmentary and unreliable services. There is a better future for public transport in Wales, butthis service has to be integrated and include trains and buses, and it's only by securing the powers and the funding that we are owed that we can achieve this. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Public transport is a hugely important part of building a greener and more equal Wales. I travel via rail frequently from north to south Wales, occasionally on the north Wales main line, Wrexham to Bidston, and other services across the country and border. The services lately have seen more overcrowding and cancellations, and recently it was down to weather, which is understandable, but also due to breakdown and servicing of trains and availability of drivers.
Many more people want to travel at the weekend and for social occasions, but we don't have the availability of the stock to just move them around. I understand that it may be difficult to have enough drivers and that negotiations are under way through the unions regarding working hours and the working week to include Sundays from next year. Passengers have also said to me that if services won't be available, please don't advertise them, so they would know just to travel the next day, if that's possible. In our busy lives, it's better to have a train running on time with the inconvenience of choosing another day than the inconvenience of facing last-minute cancellations, waiting at stations, or standing for a long time on a crowded train. There are often cost implications for people; however, we would not want to this become permanent or frequent as a cost saving to the operator, as we are seeing on the Avanti West Coast line, which is operating across the border.
I welcome the massive £900 million investment in rolling stock across the Wales and borders network. I was told just a few months ago that the new 197s were to be rolled out by the end of 2023, but read recently that it will be the end of 2024. Unfortunately, I have been telling concerned constituents that when the rolling stock comes out at the end of 2023, capacity issues would be resolved. So, again, if possible, please can we manage expectation and keep people informed as to reasons why not? One hundred and twenty-five million pounds of extra funding has been found for rail and £46 million for buses as a transition fund. This funding is surely a one-off payment, and not recurring, so what contingencies do Transport for Wales have? Passenger numbers have not returned to bus transport, and I welcome that Transport for Wales will be advertising and promoting a campaign to be launched next month, which will be hugely important, and we all need to take part in that. We need reassurance that public bus transport is not being treated less favourably, as it impacts on more people, including access to education, work, medical appointments and the most vulnerable in our society.
The timetable information and tracking information via various apps is excellent and useful, and I would like to praise the helpfulness of Transport for Wales staff on platforms and on trains. I know people can book assistance, but I also see, on the platform, at the ticket office, staff generally helping people with bags, cases, prams and information. It can be daunting for many people to know which platform, which train to get, and the staff are extremely helpful building confidence for passengers. And I'm really pleased that Transport for Wales have taken on board the Boys Need Bins campaign, working with Prostate Cancer UK, following a discussion I had with a rail user raising it with Michelle from Transport Focus.
The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers are striking because of rationalisation in the UK of ticket offices, conductors and platform staff. This is not happening in Wales, thank goodness. But it will have come at a cost to the transport budget and impact on cross-border services, as funding is not forthcoming from the UK Government. The UK Government is also looking at rationalising maintenance and building of new lines through Network Rail driving efficiencies. This could impact on flooding, encroachment of trees—we have ash dieback and there was a tree pollen issue with the 230s on the Wrexham-Bidston line. This will also impact on service. We can't just look at Transport for Wales alone; people need to realise that it's Network Rail and Transport for Wales, it's both Governments with the rail service. And, as I said, there are also issues with Avanti West Coast removing trains and services.
Public transport will always need subsidy. When the Victorians built the railways, they were competing for passengers, with sometimes duplicate lines that were not joined up. Various Governments, over many years, have tried different private and public options with varying success. Every time a Government has invested money, a following Government has cut it and tried to rationalise it. We need the UK Government to seriously invest in our public transport infrastructure and not reduce it, and give Wales the money it needs and its fair share. We also need Transport for Wales to manage expectation and be very open and up to date with information, so that it can take people on the journey along with them and manage expectation. Thank you.

Sian Gwenllian AC: Trains have been part of my life since I can remember, from making mud pies by the line that travelled right through the middle of my village, to travelling on the final train that used that line at the end of the 1960s, when the Beeching axe fell—a huge mistake in destroying the train network, as everyone now recognises. We now have a second-rate, unacceptable train service in Wales.
As a context to this, there have been long years of a lack of investment in infrastructure since the days of Beeching—a lack of infrastructure in tracks and signals by Network Rail. Eleven per cent of the track, 1 per cent of the investment—this says it all about the grave neglect of the British state of the needs of Wales. And then the major mistake in 2005, the very strange decision by the Welsh Government not to accept the offer of devolution of infrastructure to Wales. How can you create a new system when you have only half the powers? It's like making a pie with only half the ingredients—a mud pie, perhaps.
We have to see infrastructure devolved to Wales. That isn't on the agenda of the unionist parties, but Plaid Cymru will continue to make that case. We will also continue to argue for our fair share of HS2 funding in order to invest in an integrated high-quality public transport system. We will continue to make the case for connecting our nation—from north to south, with a proper network of buses and trains. We will continue to make the case for re-establishing a train line down the west of our country, so that we don't have to leave the country to travel on a train from one end of the country to another; for ambition, for modern trains, which are fit for purpose for our people, and those who visit us to enjoy our beautiful landscapes and coasts on the trains.
In the meantime, it's five years since Transport for Wales took over from Arriva Trains Wales—an important development that is to be applauded. That's what establishing the body and nationalising the service was. And there have been several positives as a result of that—better working conditions for the staff, a service that espouses both our national languages in visible and audible ways, more services available, and the ability to reinvest profits.
But, but, but, I am duty-bound on behalf of my constituents to highlight the problems, and to report from regular experience as a regular user of the train service from Bangor to Cardiff, it is not good enough by a long chalk: delays, regular cancellations, poor hygiene, heating that is unreliable—it's either too cold or too hot—and recently there hasn't been enough space for everyone to sit, not enough carriages to meet demand, and the current carriages running from north to south aren't fit for purpose for lengthy journeys. I look enviously at some of the trains running on the Rhymney line, and it's good to see those. I look enviously at the trains travelling to London, and I also see those operational across Europe and I'm envious of them. It's no surprise, therefore, that Transport of Wales has the worst customer ratings of all the train operators in these nations. We have to stick to the timetable for improving and upgrading the rolling stock by 2024.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Would you take a quick intervention?

Sian Gwenllian AC: Yes.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We are in a time where we are concerned about the numbers of people using the train service. It's a genuine concern of mine that the experience that people have on the trains running between north and south Wales, having to change in Chester on straight-through journeys, and so on, makes people decide not to take the train—my own daughter, after her last two journeys to Cardiff, said, 'I'm not going to do that by train again'. We're not going to attract people to use the train.

Sian Gwenllian AC: Like your daughter, many constituents come to me and say the same—that they've had such depressing experiences that they wouldn't use the train again. I continue to use the service, and I'm confident that things will improve, but we now truly need to put that major effort into those improvements so that we can get to a position where we are proud of our train service here in Wales, so that we can think to the future and be confident that we have something that we can be truly proud of for the future.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'd like to start the debate just by saying that, apart from the reference to the UK Government, I thought Carolyn Thomas's contribution—. It even made me think of things that I hadn't thought about. And, of course, our colleague Siân Gwenllian has gone back a bit. Well, a couple of confessions here. I've held my driving licence for 46 years. I love zipping around in my car and woe betide anyone who tries to tell me that I can't. However, I have been listening to our Deputy Minister because, quite frankly, when the trains are running, it's a much better alternative north to south in a train, where you can work, you're not interrupted by people calling you. Well, they do interrupt by calling, but it's easier to answer when you're on a train, where there's a signal, that is.
But the point being is that I have listened to you, Deputy Minister, and I want to use the train service. I want to use Transport for Wales, but the number of complaints coming in—. Now, I've been here 12 years, and, I have to tell you, it was pretty good then compared to what we have now. I remember on one occasion, in my first term, when they'd undercalculated for the amounts of people going to a football or a rugby match, and it was chaos. And I recall at the time contacting somebody in Arriva Wales, Ben Davies, well known to people in the rail industry at the time. And I remember—this was absolutely awful—he took my word for it and he put another carriage on at Chester to help with the people fighting to get on the train. It was awful. But that was one bad experience in five years, but now, as regular followers of Janet's travel journals on social media will know, you know when I'm having a bad journey. But quite often—more often than not, sadly—we see passengers crammed on, no seats, no trolleys. And it might sound a bit feeble, 'no trolleys', but, in the summer, on these new trains with no windows, if you've forgotten to get a bottle of water, even, you can feel quite ill at the end of a journey in excessive temperatures. Terrible Wi-Fi. Only 57 per cent of services arriving on time. And it's not just me complaining, as we've heard today. Twenty-two per cent of people in Wales believe their train services are bad; that's the highest in Britain. The latest figures for Transport for Wales services specifically show that customer satisfaction has fallen 15 percentage points.
Despite a target to introduce 77 new trains by this period, just 34 have been delivered, and we have had lots of promises, Lee Waters. I've been quite patient: 'It's going to get better. It's going to get better', and we keep waiting. But at the same time as we've had the 77 new trains—and they're not all running, I can tell you—we've had some taken away from us. I was with my colleague Siân Gwenllian one day when we saw all those parked up at Crewe, if you recall. And so I question why they're there, and why they're not on the lines.
When we even have the First Minister confirming that TfW has fallen behind target, there's no disputing the disastrousness of the current train service. I am a very passionate advocate of the Conwy valley railway line, but TfW and the Deputy Minister for Climate Change do refuse to allow progress to take place. Campaigning for a direct service from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Manchester airport would be brilliant. I've campaigned for a late-evening train service from Llandudno to Blaenau so that those people living in our valley can actually access jobs, access the pub, if they want to go to the pub in the evening. But you've said, Minister,
'Transport for Wales have recently considered passenger demand across the network, including on the Conwy Valley Line. The final evening service departs from Blaenau Ffestiniog at 20:27 and arrives at Llandudno at 21:44. There are no plans to operate a later service on this line.'
Now, whilst I acknowledge the 20:27 train travelling north, we need something far later than that going south. There is no other public transport until the morning. We don't have a bus service.
Along the valley, we've had serious concerns that TfW conductors are not providing passengers with tickets for their journey, especially those who qualify for free travel. So, I'm going to ask you, Minister, to explain the rationale behind having a train service whereby you don't know how many people are actually travelling on that train. The failure to issue a ticket means that the passengers are not travelling in accordance with section 6.1 of the national rail conditions of travel, applicable from 6 February 2022. The line has had a bus substitution in place on 244 days during the last two financial years, and, on 18 days, there were no rail or replacement bus services, only three of which were due to extreme weather conditions. So, the others were just bad performance. So, TfW are failing the Conwy valley line. They're failing those very people who want to use your public transport, and too often I've heard the First Minister, I've heard you, say, 'Oh, pandemic levels—we can't get back up.' If, as has been said here quite clearly, it's a bad service, people do it once or twice and then they give up. They'll resort back to the car. So, really—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I've been very generous with time, Janet Finch-Saunders, so can you come to a conclusion?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. So, really, just listen to us, Deputy Minister. We want some assurances that we're going to actually have a safe and secure and pleasurable journey when we come to use the train service. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Deputy Minister now to reply to the debate—Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Just before moving on to address some of the specific points raised during the debate, I want to address head on any confusion as to why this £125 million has been allocated towards Transport for Wales. Just to be clear, this is not a bail-out, as some have characterised it. This is not about providing new funding for rail at the expense of buses, as others have said. We have provided an extra £46 million for bus this year, which we'd already announced, so it's wrong to say that there's no additional funding for buses. And this isn't down to financial mismanagement on the part of TfW or the Welsh Government, for that matter. Very simply, when we awarded the Wales and borders rail franchise to KeolisAmey, it was based on their projection of rapid passenger growth. The numbers were very ambitious, and our budget assumptions were based on those ambitions, and, as we know, COVID blew that out of the water. Indeed, the franchise collapsed. But the numbers remained in the budget. As James Price put it himself recently, we have essentially had three lost years of revenue growth because of COVID-19. Now, that's not unique to Wales. As we've seen, the pandemic also shattered the privatised franchise model for rail in England. The Tory privatisation model of the early 1990s is over. It has failed, just as the model of bus privatisation has failed.
Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned services being withdrawn. Well, the TransPennine service has been cut by more than 6 per cent to manage punctuality, and the promised six trains an hour from Leeds to Manchester cut to three. So, there are challenges right across the rail industry, and I would suggest to the Conservative benches that they ought to have a little more humility and recognise that the challenges we are facing directly flow from their party’s obsession with bringing the free market into public services, and it has failed the public.
The impact of the pandemic on passenger behaviour is now, thankfully, stabilising. I can confirm that ticket revenue has returned to pre-COVID levels. That’s despite the poor recent performance, which has been catalogued, and the fact that many fewer people are commuting during Monday to Friday. And let’s be clear that the poor performance also has its roots in the underinvestment we have seen in new trains and tracks maintenance, which has flowed from Tory rail privatisation. They have to take responsibility for this. This Government, in contrast, is investing in public transport. We have increased services by 80 per cent since 2018. We retired the much-maligned pacers in 2021, after 30 years of service. Last week, we retired the class 175 trains. In December, we will be able to complete the £70 million investment in Ebbw Vale, on time and on budget, for services to go from Ebbw Vale to Newport. That’s joint working between the Welsh Government, Network Rail, TfW and the local council. And the Treherbert line will reopen in the new year, after the biggest investment in its history. Yes, Huw.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for giving way. It's simply to say that you have missed one thing out there, which was the reintroduction of the Sunday service on the Llynfi line for the first time in—. Crikey, we lost it 40 years ago. If you can give us the half-hourly one now as well, we'll erect a statue of you halfway down the line

Lee Waters AC: Well, isn't that tempting. [Laughter.] I have missed out lots of improvements; I just don’t have the time to go through them all. There have been significant improvements because of our investment, even investment in infrastructure, which should be the responsibility of the UK Government, which they have not come forward with.
There is huge untapped potential now to grow passenger numbers as we invest in new trains and more frequent services that will be able to properly integrate with buses when we bring in franchising, as Hefin David mentioned, and game-changing projects like the £1 billion south Wales metro. Having a single ticket, a single network and a single timetable is the promise that bus franchising and TfW integrating the rail timetable together brings us. Delyth.

Delyth Jewell AC: Sorry to interrupt you before you get to the end of the sentence, but would you take an intervention, please?

Lee Waters AC: Yes.

Delyth Jewell AC: You were talking about the new trains. Could you just clarify something, Minister, with your amendment? Am I reading it correctly, that you are committing in it to delivering 95 per cent of train services with new trains by the end of this year? It says 'by 2024'. So, that would be 1 January, wouldn't it? That is what it's committing to.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think that the year begins in January, but it goes right to the end of the year. We have had real difficulties with the number of trains delivered to us under contract by the various providers. They are now coming, on average, every seven to 10 days off the production lines and onto the tracks. And, Janet, the reason why there are so many stabled in Crewe is that driver training needs to take place and train testing needs to take place. I know that it's frustrating seeing them sitting there, but you can be assured that they are on the way. As has been mentioned by a number of speakers, when you get to experience them, as I did on Saturday—the new 197s on the Llanelli to Cardiff line—it really is a step change in the difference of experience. It's like travelling first-class.
So, we are facing a series of challenges in transport. There is no doubt about that. COVID, austerity, inflation are all making our task of growing levels of public transport really, really hard. But we are on an a journey and, by 2040, we want to see 45 per cent of journeys being made by public transport, walking and cycling, up from 32 per cent now. That requires system change, and that doesn't happen overnight. But we are now putting in the foundations of a modern rail network and a properly planned and integrated bus system, along with an ambitious approach to active travel. The path is not smooth, but it is clear, and we will get there. And if we are to stop runaway climate change, Llywydd, we must get there.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Delyth Jewell, now, to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. And thank you to everyone who has taken part in our debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Natasha opened by paying tribute, as well, to front-line TfW staff—that is welcome. I think it's really important to put that on the record whenever we do discuss these issues. Natasha then set out that the problem is to do with reliability and accessibility, setting out that there are seven rail stations in Wales that have no disabled access. That may be in the purview of Network Rail, but whoever is responsible, it is a shocking state of affairs, and it's not acceptable.
Hefin, that was a lovely train journey that we shared together from Abercynon. Hefin set out the progress seen on the Rhymney line—again, I do welcome that. What we were told is that we would start to see progress immediately. I counter that many passengers aren't seeing that, but I hope, Hefin, that, next time we share a journey from Abercynon, it will be on a new train.

Delyth Jewell AC: Heledd echoed that same hope, but there is a danger, as she said, that there will be overpromising and underdelivery. She welcomed the work that is being done, but there are impacts—including, particularly, for people living in the Rhondda, because there are no trains currently running to Treherbert—of missing medical appointments, losing jobs and the fact that the alternative bus services aren't working very well. That was very disappointing to hear, but it's very important that we did hear that in the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Tom set out some of the challenging figures for TfW on low customer satisfaction. I counter, Tom, that taxpayers' money should be invested in public transport, in public services—that's what our taxes are for. And then, as for the rest of your contribution—oh, Tom, the attempts of the Tories to shift the narrative towards 20 mph are seemingly inexhaustible, but I was glad that Heledd intervened to ask whether the Tories think that this Government has any role to tackle the climate crisis. If we keep driving only, we will drive ourselves over the cliff. Now, this is a serious debate and I think it deserves better than trying to twist it always back to other debates.

Delyth Jewell AC: Cefin talked about rural areas, which don't have rail connections and are dependent on buses. Cefin wanted to know why more match funding wasn't going to buses. He said that Beeching casts a long shadow on these areas. It's only by having those full powers, as Cefin said, that we can have certainty of having the investment, too, in our public transport systems. All of our tracks run towards another country—those main lines. It's time that we find a new path.

Delyth Jewell AC: Now, Carolyn shared how her own stories that she's experienced of overcrowded trains, of broken-down trains, cancellations and the delay in rolling out the new trains has been dispiriting for many of her constituents. And I agree with what Carolyn was saying, that managing expectations is important, but she praised the helpfulness of staff at platforms. And she set out how, again, the lack of funding is having a detrimental effect on our lines.

Delyth Jewell AC: Siân shared memories of her life on the trains, including the mud pies—I remember I used to make mud pies in the garden and I used to throw them against the wall of the house and mum would get so angry with me. But it's the neglect of the British state, that's what's at the heart of our problems. That’s what happened with Beeching and that's what's happening to this day. I really liked that metaphor, that image, or the simile that you used, that having just a few powers is the same as trying to bake a cake with half the ingredients—or a mud pie. I really like that idea.

Delyth Jewell AC: Janet also took us on a trip down memory lane, and she said that, when the trains run, it's a much better way of travelling. I agree with you. Though, from Janet's experience of being on hot trains with no trolley, no Wi-Fi, no toilets that are working—that happens too often. And she raised the need for services to run later in the evening.
Now, the Deputy Minister set out why the £125 million extra has been invested in TfW, setting out that COVID has led to lost revenue growth. I would question why those figures, then, weren't revised more quickly, because, as Carolyn said, expectation management is vital with something like this. But I agree,privatisation has failed, which is why we need this new system to work. It was a shame to hear that the 95 per cent target will not be by 2024, but by the end of 2024, but I do look forward to those new trains when they come in. I was waiting to see who would be the first to use the phrase, 'We're on a journey' in this debate, so I was glad that we did get that from the Deputy Minister.
Now,I said earlier, Llywydd—[Interruption.] Yes, we are on the right track. [Laughter.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Hit the buffers.

Delyth Jewell AC: See, they just write themselves. [Laughter.] As the groans start, then, I will draw to a close. I said earlier, Llywydd, that for as long as another country sets the limits on our transport policy, Wales will be at a standstill. Now, we need to ensure that Wales, for example, gets the £8.6 million from last week's bus funding announcement. The Treasury has claimed that that isn't due to us. We need a funding settlement that's based on need, which is a point that Ben Lake and many others have been making. It's not too late for us to act, to demand those powers for ourselves, to ensure there won't be another scandal like HS2, that where we're headed is something we decide, so that we can take, finally, those long-awaited first steps. It was Terry Pratchett who said that
'Every step is a first step if it's a step in the right direction.'
And we know what direction is the right one for us. I don't want Wales to stay stuck waiting for the last train in this dead-end station on a line to nowhere. We can't wait for that train to leave us stranded on the platform. On our current trajectory, Wales will stay reliant on services that are late, overcrowded or cancelled. We are going nowhere fast. As a nation it is time we took our next first step, that next inevitable step. It is time we changed our course; our destination is waiting for us.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to the first vote. That vote is on item 6, the Welsh Conservative debate: A&E performance data. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate—A&E department performance data. Motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. And if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. Open the vote on amendment 1. [Inaudible.]—the vote is tied, and therefore I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment, which leaves 26 in favour, no abstentions, and 27 against. And therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. This vote is again tied, so 26 in favour, no abstentions, and 26 against. I exercise my casting vote, therefore, against the amendment, so there are 26 in favour and 27 against. Amendments 2 is therefore not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Amendment 3 is next, again in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. [Inaudible.]—vote is tied, therefore I will exercise my casting vote against amendment 3. So, there are 26 in favour, no abstentions, and 27 against. Amendment 3 is therefore not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And therefore the motion and the amendments to it have all been rejected under that item.
We will now move to the Plaid Cymru debate on transport, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The vote is tied, so 26 in favour, 26 against. I exercise my casting vote against the motion, and therefore the unamended motion is not agreed: 26 in favour, 27 against.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate—Transport for Wales. Motion without amendment: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We'll now move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. The vote is tied: 26 in favour, 26 against. I exercise my casting vote against amendment 1, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed: 26 in favour, 27 against.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next vote will be on amendment 2 tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. And the vote is tied. I exercise my casting vote against amendment 2, and therefore the result of the vote is 26 in favour, 27 against.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Therefore, the motion and the amendments to it have been rejected under that item too, and that concludes voting for today.

9. Short Debate: Stroke awareness and the FAST/NESA campaign

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: But our business goes on. We will now move to the short debate. I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to introduce the short debate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: If I can ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly. We still have one item of business to complete and that's the short debate. And Huw Irranca-Davies can start that short debate when he believes the Chamber is quiet enough for him to do so.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. And if I may, in this short debate, I've given some time to Joyce Watson and to Mark Isherwood as well at the close. I'd like to begin by repeating the words of Fran from Church Village in Pontypridd, who appeared at our recent cross-party group. She has lived experience of stroke. She told the group:
'I woke up and my face felt funny. I had a little drink and it was dribbling down my face, but I thought nothing of it. I just thought I was tired, so I went back to sleep, as I didn't want to be a drama queen and disturb my husband and children. When I woke up in the morning, I went downstairs. I tried to speak to my husband, but no words came out. I tried to speak a few times, but then I panicked. I was frightened and had no idea what was happening to me.'

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: And so began Fran's journey through stroke and life after stroke. Fran's stroke has left her with aphasia, which affects her communication and which also leaves her fatigued. We were genuinely privileged to have Fran share her frank and honest experience, her story, with us at the recently reconvened cross-party group, which I'm now privileged to be able to chair with Altaf Hussain, my colleague, as vice chair. And it's another step forwards, in reconvening this group, towards raising the awareness of stroke, listening to stroke survivors and also raising the importance of acting FAST, calling 999 if you recognise the symptoms too, which will be the focus of my debate today.
So, today's debate focuses on the Act FAST and also the Welsh version of that, the cam NESA campaign, in Wales. It's a critical initiative to raise awareness about the signs of stroke and what to do if you suspect one.
Now, stroke, we know, is a debilitating condition. It affects thousands of lives each year. So, our efforts in preventing it, detecting it, responding quickly and managing it are more crucial than ever before. There are currently around 70,000 people in Wales who have survived stroke, according to their GP practice record. I know many people individually myself.
The Welsh Government has projected a 50 per cent increase in the number of stroke survivors over the next two decades, so, it is really imperative that we act to prevent stroke, to detect the high-risk conditions as early as possible and to ensure that patients receive the optimal care and support. And this is where the Act FAST/Cam NESA campaign comes into play. Since its inception in 2009, the NHS FAST campaign has delivered really impressive results. It has provided thousands of thrombolysis treatments, quality-adjusted life years and roughly a £9 return on investment for every single £1 of media spend. It's a testament to the power of public awareness campaigns in healthcare.
And on the issue of rapid response to stroke for a moment, we know that early medical treatment for stroke not only saves lives, but it increases the chances of recovery. Stroke is the fifth single leading cause of death in Wales; it's the single largest cause of complex disability. So, a delay in getting treatment for stroke kills the brain cells and can sadly prove to be fatal. So, that's why it's important to act FAST.
Health Inspectorate Wales's 'National review of patient flow: a journey through the stroke pathway', published only this September, explored the experiences of people accessing care and treatment for stroke at every single stage, from calling the ambulance, transfer to hospital, assessment, in-patient treatment, right through to discharge, and it recognised—that really recognised—that the healthcare system, as we often hear in this Chamber, is currently facing a demand that surpasses its capacity to deliver. During the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's field work, nearly all the hospitals visited were operating under level 4 extreme pressure in the national emergency pressures escalation and de-escalation action plan.
And this heightened demand does affect the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust's—WAST's—ability to respond promptly to emergency calls, despite the heroic efforts of hospital patient flow teams throughout Wales, working around the clock to try and improve patient flow. Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's observations were that patient flow challenges were negatively impacting every single phase of stroke care, and this impact extended from the initial need for healthcare at home to the point of discharge from the hospital. However, it was positive to find that patients suspected as having had a stroke were prioritised for ambulance handover—this is what they found—and were transferred to an emergency department promptly in line with the stroke pathway. So, even under those pressures, they're trying to do the right thing. They also found that the recognition of stroke and its prevention is a key area that needs attention right across Wales. More needs to be done by NHS healthcare providers and Public Health Wales to educate people about stroke, which brings us back to FAST and Cam NESA.
So, throughout April and May 2023, Public Health Wales ran the Act FAST/Cam NESA campaign. It used platforms like tv, radio, social media. It reached millions of people across Wales. We know that; it has been analysed. Bilingual tv adverts were run on both ITV Wales and S4C, which received over 5 million impressions. Radio adverts and video-on-demand adverts were also live during this period. They received 10 million impressions and a little under 310,000 impressions respectively. Act FAST adverts were also live on Facebook and Instagram, and they reached 1 million people across Wales. There was hardly anybody who didn't see this campaign going on, and the impact was clear. Nearly 90 per cent, then, of the subsequently surveyed population said they recognised the importance of dialling 999 when they witness the signs of a stroke; over a third had seen the campaign's communications; and the FAST test was familiar to almost 80 per cent of respondents. Knowledge of the individual letters of the acronym was also consistently above 90 per cent: so, that's face, arms, speech and time.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Or, in Welsh, a problem with the face: has their face dropped on one side? Can they smile? Reach: can they extend both arms above their head and keep them there? Speech: are they having difficulty in speaking? Time: a timely response is vitally important. Phone 999 if you see any of these symptoms.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: There was real evidence that people had taken on those messages in Welsh and English. Whilst it's positive to see these numbers and learn that awareness is being raised, it is still evident that more can and needs to be done on awareness and on a more frequent and a more routine basis.
Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's national review of patient flow made the following recommendation specific to stroke prevention. They said that health boards should engage more with each other to learn from the good patient education practices taking place across Wales. This could help, they said, with the shared learning between themselves and with GP practices in the localities to educate better patients of the risks of stroke, to help reduce the number of strokes across Wales. And they also said that Public Health Wales should consider the development and promotion of a national campaign to raise stroke awareness and its prevention in Wales alongside the Act FAST campaign, and this should include focusing down on awareness of stroke prevention within black and minority ethnic communities and the impact of health inequalities and socioeconomic deprivation. And they also said health boards and Public Health Wales should work closely with black and minority ethnic communities and people affected by those socioeconomic disadvantages to understand better the specific issues they face with their increased risk of stroke and in accessing the preventative care to ensure that ongoing engagement with them supports better health outcomes. We know the importance of that.
So, the Stroke Association, which is behind the cross-party group, along with many other people, is calling for a biennial Act FAST/Cam NESA campaign in Wales to ensure that everyone knows to call 999 at the first sign of a stroke. Running that FAST campaign more regularly will ultimately increase the public awareness of stroke via national campaigns and with a particular emphasis on that engagement with black and minority ethnic communities and those affected by socioeconomic deprivation. A dedicated biennial Act FAST/Cam NESA campaign in Wales would also allow, then, time to plan and for all stakeholders to be involved from the very beginning so it ensures that money put towards the campaign is well utilised. The current arrangements, which rely on a pretty much ad-hoc basis, where we find some leftover money, it creates difficulty in engaging all the stakeholders well and difficulty, then, in utilising the funds more effectively. So, we are therefore joining their calls for a campaign to secure the Minister's commitment, in the difficult times that we have, for Public Health Wales to run that Act FAST/Cam NESA campaign at least every two years in Wales to ensure the Welsh public are kept informed with the FAST campaign, as recommended by the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's national review of patient flow. And secondly to ensure that all the necessary stakeholders from those initial planning stages and through the campaign are fully involved to make the money go further as well.
So, on a final note, before I introduce other colleagues who wish to contribute, we know that, for every minute that a stroke is left untreated, up to 2 million brain cells die, and the longer this goes on, the more likely it is to lead to permanent brain damage, worse disability, and even fatality. So, please, for anyone listening to this debate, know the signs and act FAST. Do not feel like you're being a burden on the NHS, that you don't want to ring 999. Do not feel that you're being a burden on your family. Your chances of survival, your family's and your friends' chances of survival, are improved if you act FAST. The recovery and rehabilitation and chances of recovery are improved rapidly. Act FAST. Take y cam NESA. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to just highlight one case. It was due to the Act FAST campaign that this young individual survived so successfully. I think the one thing that was missing is that stroke can happen to anybody, at any age. The case that I'm going to give you happened some years ago to a 17-year-old male who was visiting his friends in Cardiff. They were well across the act FAST. They had seen the adverts, and they recognised the symptoms, even though he was only 17. They called an ambulance. He was taken to the university hospital in Cardiff, where he underwent clot retrieval treatment. That was on a Friday. On the Monday, I happened to be visiting that hospital and that stroke unit. I met the young man in question, I met his family, and I also met the surgeons. He was actually speaking to me and he had made a full recovery. There were two things in his favour, but the singular thing that was in his favour was that his colleagues had responded to what they had seen, that campaign you were talking about on the tv, listened to it on the radio, and had no doubt of what they were witnessing, even though he was only 17 years of age. So, I support your call for the campaign, having seen a young person's life being saved and also returned virtually to where it was before.

Mark Isherwood AC: By coincidence, I actually led a debate here almost exactly a year ago on stroke services, where I stated:
'The Stroke Association has also called for a renewed FAST campaign'
—face, arms, speech, time—
'by Public Health Wales...to improve awareness of stroke symptoms and urge those experiencing these to call 999 as soon as possible. Acting fast gives the person having a stroke the best chance of survival and recovery',
adding that the FAST campaign was last run in Wales in 2018, but was run in both England and Northern Ireland in 2021, and analysis of the campaign in England found that it was highly cost effective.
In June, I visited Buckley stroke group with the Stroke Association to learn about their experience of stroke, and subsequently raised here the issues they had raised with me. Having joined the cross-party group on stroke, meeting earlier this month, which launched the campaign for Welsh Government and Public Health Wales to commit to running a regular FAST campaign, I'm delighted to support this motion today.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, I want to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this important issue to the Chamber and all Members who've contributed to the debate. I'm glad that he and Altaf Hussain have reconstituted that cross-party group, so thank you for taking that initiative.
Stroke is the fourth leading cause of death in Wales. It's a leading cause of disability, and it changes lives in an instant. It's been high on the agenda in the last few weeks, and I welcome the opportunity once again to shine a light on what I think is a really important subject. With the right specialist support, people can make a good recovery, and go on to rebuild their lives following a stroke. But, as you've mentioned, time is absolutely critical. Delays in receiving assessment, diagnosis and treatment are not passive and result in poorer outcomes. Sometimes people don't recognise or they dismiss the symptoms of stroke. This can result in critical delays in treatment that can save lives, prevent, or limit the severity or disability associated with stroke. Raising awareness of the signs of stroke and increasing knowledge of stroke as a medical emergency is a key area that we absolutely must maintain our focus on, using campaigns such as the FAST campaign. Now, the evaluation of the FAST campaign—you referred to this in your intervention—which was run by Public Health Wales earlier this year, demonstrated that, after that campaign, more people recognised the FAST acronym, and understood the importance of dialling 999 when they see the signs of stroke. So, I'm really supportive of this campaign being run in a sustainable way, and we must all work together to find a way to make this happen. But you'll know we're in a time of unprecedented pressure on Welsh Government's budgets, so the health boards are facing really, really difficult decisions to bring down their predicted deficits. But we can't shy away, I think, from those realities.

Eluned Morgan AC: But let me turn to the important point of prevention. Now, I met recently with the national stroke programme team, and the Stroke Association, and I was astonished to find that as many as nine out of 10 strokes are preventable. So, whilst ensuring stroke patients are treated quickly is crucial, with the current cost of strokes to the NHS per year being £220 million, and the number of stroke survivors expected to increase by 50 per cent during the next 20 years, it's vital that stroke is effectively prevented where possible, and high-risk conditions, such as high blood pressure and atrial fibrillation, are detected and effectively managed.
We know that outcomes are not equal for everyone, and I'm really pleased that you focused on that issue of getting to the black, Asian, minority ethnic community. And the Welsh Government is taking cross-Government action to address the social determinants of health, and to tackle those health inequalities in Wales, particularly in that BAME community.
Our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, for example, sets out our vision to reduce diet and health inequalities across the population, and we continue to promote healthier lifestyles, including encouraging people to achieve and maintain a healthy weight and be more physically active.
We recognise that our current model for the management of stroke must change if we're going to realise the aims that were set out in the quality statement for stroke, which I published in 2021. Now, the good news is that work is really well under way to develop the comprehensive regional stroke centre model, but I think it's fair to say this isn't going to happen overnight. The work to develop this model is complex, but it does provide an opportunity to look at regional solutions, but also to look to consider things like rurality—and Joyce Watson will be particularly interested in that—and access to services, as well as the need to develop a sustainable workforce model. Working with Health Education and Improvement Walesto address the workforce issues, I think, is critical to the future of effective stroke care in Wales.
I think there's really exciting digital innovations being adopted in Wales to enhance the stroke pathway. And just last week, innovative artificial intelligence/imaging technology went live in Cardiff and Vale health board, with other health boards, and they're going to move on to use this AI in the next few months. So, what this does is it speeds up the diagnosis of stroke, helping clinicians make faster, clinical decisions and identify appropriate treatments quickly. A pre-hospital virtual triage app is also being piloted at Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, and is proving really successful at reducing delays in the stroke pathway. And what they're doing is they're bypassing A&E, taking patients directly to scan to confirm stroke diagnosis and accelerate treatment. And this is now going to be deployed across Wales. So, I think this is really good. It's exactly what we've been asking for. Technology is going to help us here.
So, just recently, a suspected stroke patient was assessed by a paramedic, who consulted a stroke specialist via the Visionable app. The initial assessment and treatment decision made via video in the ambulance meant that clinicians were then able to arrange for the patient to have a brain scan within half an hour of his arrival, with no delays at A&E.So, things are moving on. I think that's quite positive. There's a long way to go, and we do need to roll that out across Wales.
I don't underestimate the challenges ahead, but I'm confident that the work being led by the national clinical lead for stroke, Dr Shakeel Ahmad, in collaboration with the NHS organisations, and in particularthe Stroke Association, who are doing great work, will propel us in the right direction to achieve the aims that were set out in that quality statement.
And, as Joyce has said, it's really relevant to people of all ages, and I think it's important, when a stroke does occur, that there is an excellent chance of surviving and returning to independence as quickly as possible. The public are our partners, and the importance of them being able to recognise the signs and symptoms of stroke is clear, and therefore I am supportive of the FAST campaign, and I am interested in making sure that we can work together with partners to explore opportunities on how and when we can run that campaign again together in the future. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister, and thank you to Huw Irranca-Davies for that debate. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:50.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Luke Fletcher: What assessment has the Government made of the impact of rent increases on tenants' ability to cover basic expenses?

Julie James: We held a Green Paper consultation seeking evidence on rents and affordability for tenants. Officials are now analysing the responses from over 370 respondents to inform the development of a White Paper on adequate housing and fair rents. This work is being carried out in collaboration with Sian Gwenllian the Plaid Cymru lead designated member, as part of the Co-operation Agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru.

Jane Dodds: Will the Minister make a statement on Wales's progress towards reducing fossil fuel extraction and consumption?

Julie James: Wales is the only UK country with a published and established policy of presuming against all fossil fuel extraction. We will continue to do all we can to transition away from the use of fossil fuels and scale up our deployment of renewable energy.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Gareth Davies: What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the shortening of teaching hours on pupil learning and attainment in Denbighshire?

Jeremy Miles: There has been no reduction in teaching hours in Denbighshire.

Mike Hedges: How is the Minister ensuring that further education colleges are producing increasing numbers of skilled workers for the Welsh economy?

Jeremy Miles: We work with colleges to ensure they offer provision that meets the needs of learners, employers and the wider community. This includes provision such as personal learning accounts, apprenticeships and other courses that respond flexibly to changing technology and business needs, expanding into new professions and training routes where needed.